tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post1834164788139827529..comments2023-10-22T09:18:16.885-04:00Comments on Far and Wide: "This is crazy economics. It's crazy environmental policy" HarperSteve Vhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-82131402135866886092008-06-21T04:17:00.000-04:002008-06-21T04:17:00.000-04:00Ok, he's already (thru his delinquent emissary) to...Ok, he's already (thru his delinquent emissary) told people to not invest in Ontario, so now Harper is saying that a plan that aims at taking responsibility for our contributions to Climate Change issue is 'crazy'.<BR/>Steve's done a bang-up job assembling all the other 'crazy people' out there.<BR/>But no, let's take the word of a 'so-called economist' who promised big on Income Trusts, accountability, no appointments to the senate, security, fiscal responsibility, hospital wait times, etc. but doesn't even have the balls to show to the Canadian public his platform on increasing nuclear power generation?<BR/>Like Income Trusts et al, Harper won't campaign on the truth, but will campaign on fear, lies and misdeeds. That must be some potent koolaid. Or the CONs have raised their pay for bloggers, now by the post, because the fear is coming thru the keyboards. 'Crazy'. Right. I'd call it a real debate. Welcome to what democracy is suppose to be like, boys.<BR/>Harper's spiel sounds like words from Big Oil's own mouth.burlivespipehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18048415779214466831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-17868877254199152992008-06-20T15:07:00.000-04:002008-06-20T15:07:00.000-04:00Steve,You can add a new one to the adult response ...Steve,<BR/><BR/>You can add a new one to the adult response file . . . Harper just said in a speech in Saskatchewan that the green shift will "screw" the country.<BR/><BR/>I kid you not.<BR/><BR/>He really takes this debating issues like adults seriously.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-68235107584665896292008-06-20T12:47:00.000-04:002008-06-20T12:47:00.000-04:00"Actually, we need Libs, NDP, and Cons enviro plan..."Actually, we need Libs, NDP, and Cons enviro plans, laid out side by side, to compare the amount of gain and pain of each plan."<BR/><BR/>Yes, two binders and a napkin, powerful imagery.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-74670324957747017432008-06-20T12:43:00.000-04:002008-06-20T12:43:00.000-04:00anonWrong, the Fraser Institute is against the ide...anon<BR/><BR/>Wrong, the Fraser Institute is against the idea. Oh well, nice theory.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-15945266153224351742008-06-20T10:17:00.000-04:002008-06-20T10:17:00.000-04:00It's nice to see a long list of very rightwing thi...It's nice to see a long list of very rightwing think tanks and economists (ie: the American Enterprise Institute, the CD Howe Institute etc...) I wonder who long before the Fraser Institute and Mike Harris and Preston manning start salivating over the Liberal plan!<BR/><BR/>There is a reason for this. It's rightwing economics 101 to drive up flat consumption taxes like crazy and to counter that with cuts in income taxes and corporate taxes.<BR/><BR/>Caveat emptorAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-90583511803178363992008-06-20T09:29:00.000-04:002008-06-20T09:29:00.000-04:00Harper thinks any nuanced, thoughtful approach to ...Harper thinks any nuanced, thoughtful approach to solving problems is "crazy". Who has time for that when you're busy with more important things, like misleading and misinforming.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-42912569441474621272008-06-20T09:11:00.000-04:002008-06-20T09:11:00.000-04:00Hey, wait a minute, LibBlogger. Harper, besides be...Hey, wait a minute, LibBlogger. Harper, besides being the smartest strategist on the planet, is also an economist.<BR/><BR/>Did you know that? So there.<BR/><BR/>....just take a look at Harper's resume - he doesn't have much practical experience at all. I don't take much heed to Harper's economist ability - he's never worked a day in his life where he's used it.<BR/><BR/>Besides - you will always get one or two who will disagree - but it's the "majority" opinion that counts. besides, Harper's idealogy gets in the way of unclouded thinking - and that's not good.<BR/><BR/>....so there!RuralSandihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09552973218865121867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-84646008709324495452008-06-20T00:47:00.000-04:002008-06-20T00:47:00.000-04:00To Wilson:Everybody will get some income tax savin...To Wilson:<BR/><BR/>Everybody will get some income tax savings. Even if your income is so low that you don't pay taxes, you will get money from the refundable tax credits. It's your job to try to keep as much as you can of that money. I'm sure you'll do your best. <BR/>But from your claim that you will not get a penny of the savings, I could perhaps assume that you are a high income person. Well then, you are in a position to take the lead and invest in energy efficiency (e.g. home retrofits, fuel efficient car) or in renewable energy (e.g. solar hot water). Be a leader!<BR/><BR/>To Anonymous, whoever you are: A business whose costs increase because it uses a lot of fossil fuels will pass on part of the cost increases. All their domestic competitors will face the same cost increases. Any foreign competitors who do not pay a carbon tax at home will face a carbon tariff when they import into Canada. If this business exports, it might get a carbon tax rebate if it is exporting into countries that don't have a carbon tax. These are called Border Tax Adjustments and they are permitted under GATT/WTO rules. <BR/>More importantly, while all of this is happening we will be creating a lot of new green sector jobs. I can tell you that in my hometown of Kingston, Ontario this job creation is already happening because we have such an active and innovative sustainable energy community. A carbon tax will boost this economic sector even more as the true costs of pollution are accounted for. <BR/><BR/>Check out this website:<BR/><BR/>www.switchkingston.catedhsuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17762609953990464067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-13955570873141589042008-06-20T00:09:00.000-04:002008-06-20T00:09:00.000-04:00When an employer who's business has heavy carbon p...When an employer who's business has heavy carbon producing inputs (too many to mention),<BR/><BR/>lays off people,<BR/><BR/>do those laid off people get tax credits equivalent to their lost salary?<BR/><BR/>do the people who buy the goods (which are now more expensive) get extra money so they can purchase it at a "cost neutral" rate?<BR/><BR/>Those laid off people who then buy less and thus cause other people to be laid off, do they also get some sort of income replacement credit?<BR/><BR/>I'm sure Dion the out of touch academic will be a wonderful steward for our fragile economy.<BR/><BR/>More economic experiments please.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-4804735410253506362008-06-20T00:06:00.000-04:002008-06-20T00:06:00.000-04:00Actually, we need Libs, NDP, and Cons enviro plan...Actually, we need Libs, NDP, and Cons enviro plans, laid out side by side, to compare the amount of gain and pain of each plan.<BR/><BR/>Greens are just too wacked out for me to consider.wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03589410224972050999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-77313224419584318262008-06-19T23:58:00.000-04:002008-06-19T23:58:00.000-04:00I am not going to get a penny of the tax savings, ...I am not going to get a penny of the tax savings, I will bear the full blunt of the tax, as will many Canadianas.<BR/><BR/>So, we 'payers' want the most bang for our buck, and want to know <BR/>1.which plan hurts the economy the least, <BR/>2.while reducing ghg's the most.<BR/><BR/>It's obvious neither the Cons nor Libs plan will reach Kyoto targets by 2012 (big surprise, eh)<BR/><BR/>The economy and global warming are important, right...?<BR/><BR/>Carbon tax on consumers with tax reductions for 3 of 4 tax brackets... vs... mandatory Industry Regulations of ghg reductions of 18% + 2% year every year following.wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03589410224972050999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-10525081729008211012008-06-19T23:33:00.000-04:002008-06-19T23:33:00.000-04:00Dan - I would say the operative word being "if". ...Dan - I would say the operative word being "if". Dion has to hope that Canadians accept the premise for his plan: that this will somehow make a difference in the world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-89414601743598746212008-06-19T23:29:00.000-04:002008-06-19T23:29:00.000-04:00danI saw that too. Crazy bastards.dan<BR/><BR/>I saw that too. Crazy bastards.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-69089432459519803982008-06-19T23:27:00.000-04:002008-06-19T23:27:00.000-04:00I like how the American Enterprise Institute even ...I like how the American Enterprise Institute even favors a revenue neutral carbon tax.<BR/><BR/>"For these reasons, we conclude that if aggressive actions are to be taken to control GHG emissions, carbon-centered tax reform--not GHG emission trading--is the superior policy option."<BR/><BR/>aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.26286/pub_detail.asp<BR/><BR/>Hat-tip to Paul WellsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-16416050030311229042008-06-19T23:20:00.000-04:002008-06-19T23:20:00.000-04:00Oh, mitch, so when called on it, you change your t...Oh, mitch, so when called on it, you change your tune. It was "some other liberal" party that did anything positive.<BR/><BR/>sorry to disappoint but it was the reform party that hijacked another.<BR/><BR/>but then as you said, your comments were never really about debating sound environmental or economic policy.<BR/><BR/>Ottlib has it right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-20017851968538946582008-06-19T23:14:00.000-04:002008-06-19T23:14:00.000-04:00What about Kyoto? I haven't read the 44 page pamp...What about Kyoto? I haven't read the 44 page pamphlet but does it mention how this will make headway toward the Kyoto targets? Because if it doesn't, then does that mean that Dion is resigned like Harper not to meet the targets. I'm assuming the plan mentions something about this, does anyone know?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-31076962799179003052008-06-19T22:59:00.000-04:002008-06-19T22:59:00.000-04:00steve:As you stated a few weeks ago it is best to ...steve:<BR/><BR/>As you stated a few weeks ago it is best to ignore the likes of Mitch and his ilk.<BR/><BR/>They are not the audience we are speaking to. They will never agree with what the Liberals propose.<BR/><BR/>So it is best to save our energy for those who would be willing to give this plan a real honest look.ottlibhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12695135535019042279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-91041668395499627192008-06-19T22:26:00.000-04:002008-06-19T22:26:00.000-04:00Steve,we need not debate this,given that we've obv...Steve,<BR/><BR/>we need not debate this,<BR/><BR/>given that we've obviously got different opinions.<BR/><BR/>But here's my prediction:<BR/><BR/>Harper super majority in '09. <BR/><BR/>As for the comment about past Liberal fiscal responsibility,<BR/><BR/>the policies of Paul Martin the finance minister (not Paul Martin the PM mind you),<BR/><BR/>is far closer to the current CPC party than the far left eco fringe party that Dion's created.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-15290455296594007042008-06-19T22:16:00.000-04:002008-06-19T22:16:00.000-04:00"If the relatively simple task of entering gun reg..."If the relatively simple task of entering gun registration numbers ended up costing billions, <BR/><BR/>imagine what a highly complex cost/tax matching scheme would be like."<BR/><BR/>Mitch, interestingly enough, British Columbia has yet to hire one extra civil servant, and their plan is in the mail. But, you wouldn't want to acknowledge that, why ruin good fiction.<BR/><BR/>BTW, that leftist media comment was great. Dead giveaway. Why bother.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-36561206604265953842008-06-19T22:08:00.000-04:002008-06-19T22:08:00.000-04:00Ok, Mitch, lets make this "simple."The Liberals le...Ok, Mitch, lets make this "simple."<BR/><BR/>The Liberals led this country out of years of deficits into surpluses, which the conservatives have managed to squander in just two years. Oh, and they managed to do that by selling off national resources and launching new taxes they directly promised they wouldn't.<BR/><BR/>And that's without getting into the whole scam of open, accountable government they rode into power.<BR/><BR/>Those are what my years of experience have shown me. I've been around the block a few times myself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-26254722446005733242008-06-19T22:04:00.000-04:002008-06-19T22:04:00.000-04:00One final parting "simplistic" thought:If the rela...One final parting "simplistic" thought:<BR/><BR/>If the relatively simple task of entering gun registration numbers ended up costing billions, <BR/><BR/>imagine what a highly complex cost/tax matching scheme would be like.<BR/><BR/>And on which side of this tax/cut balance sheet do you think these costs would be borne out?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-33702136121401486882008-06-19T22:03:00.000-04:002008-06-19T22:03:00.000-04:00Jarrid, in all honesty I don't want you - or anyon...Jarrid, in all honesty I don't want you - or anyone - to suffer. And I commend you for working on your debts and seeking to move ahead. <BR/><BR/>I'm in a better place - not a lofty place - but a better place than about a decade ago when I was struggling to pay off debts and student loans. And it wasn't so long ago that I forgot what that felt like.<BR/><BR/>You seem convinced that the liberals cannot possibly be telling the truth when they state they want to make this a shift, and not a drain, on individuals and businesses - turning taxing of income into taxing of the impacts we make on the environment. And they have the decency to be upfront about the fact that they can only work to assure overall revenue neutrality. They have made a point of indicating they cannot promise each individual won't be affected.<BR/><BR/>They aren't bragging . . . they are being upfront. Perhaps Canadians aren't used to hearing that anymore.<BR/><BR/>Harper will play upon your fears, and the fears of others. His message is we can change our planet without any change to individual habits or behaviours. That just isn't true. The US, as a good example, has created an illusion of lowering taxes while increasing expenditures and they are now in a horrible financial state.<BR/><BR/>In the end, it will boil down to whom you trust to lead our country, as all elections are. But it would be wise to consider who is appealing to your fears, and look upon those appeals with a critical eye.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-18586990777995090572008-06-19T21:59:00.000-04:002008-06-19T21:59:00.000-04:00Joseph,I hate to get all "simplistic" and all, but...Joseph,<BR/><BR/>I hate to get all "simplistic" and all, but:<BR/><BR/>when, like say last year, we experience a devastatingly cold winter, such that Canadians were required to expend a significantly greater amount of heating fuel,<BR/><BR/>are we going to then retool our tax scheme the following year to corrospondingly reduce the equal amount of taxes that were raised by the excess heating costs?<BR/><BR/>Can you imagine the bureaucratic and cost nightmare in trying to attached a fixed item like tax rates to a variable cost?<BR/><BR/>How's that going to work?<BR/><BR/>If the Libs tell you that the cost to administer this program will be, say 20 million dollars, why would you not believe it will be exponentially higher, in light of the above mentioned complexity, and in light of the gun registry, HRDC boondoggle ect?<BR/><BR/>I appreciate to you these questions may be "simplistic" (I interpret your definition of simplistic as daring to not blindly follow leftist policies as if they will easily and cheaply provide the utopic solutions promised), but I tend to rely on experience rather than blind dogmatic ideology to guide my decisions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-46348486346151132642008-06-19T21:52:00.000-04:002008-06-19T21:52:00.000-04:00Perhaps we should tell all those European countrie...Perhaps we should tell all those European countries who instituted carbon based tax systems in the early 90s that their reductions in greenhouse gas emissions are just illusions. Tell them nearly 20 years after the fact that they were wrong. Don't let the facts get in your way.<BR/><BR/>Who would have thought being sensitive to the earth we all inhabit would be such a political football?<BR/><BR/>I have never been an overt environmentalist, and even I can see the need for an adjustment in the way we impact the planet on which share.<BR/><BR/>I commend Dion for being willing to ask Canadians to aspire to a better future, rather than placate their most negative instincts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-2630130796388787032008-06-19T21:47:00.000-04:002008-06-19T21:47:00.000-04:00Joseph - for the first time in living memory my ov...Joseph - for the first time in living memory my overall taxes are coming down, not by much mind you but it is noticeable and is helping me get my debt load down as I watch my expenses.<BR/><BR/>Now this guy comes along and wants to raise my taxes and is practically bragging about it? Look it's not even 24 hours and Dion has all but admitted that this tax is not revenue neutral. <BR/><BR/>Repeat after me: not revenue neutral. This guy wants to raise my taxes and my blood it boiling.<BR/><BR/>Paul Wells seems to think that people don't mind tax increases but he must be on easy street with no sense of how the struggling middle class lives. The struggling middle class, you know the one that decides elections in this country.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com