tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post3605430963985328414..comments2023-10-22T09:18:16.885-04:00Comments on Far and Wide: Outside The BeltwaySteve Vhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comBlogger128125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-81012992557071872442008-10-20T16:48:00.000-04:002008-10-20T16:48:00.000-04:00We've moved on Mike :)We've moved on Mike :)Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-3868903333422757802008-10-20T12:38:00.000-04:002008-10-20T12:38:00.000-04:00I keep coming over thinking there is a new thread ...I keep coming over thinking there is a new thread and I keep seeing the same old thread. Kind of indicative of other problems I would say...<BR/><BR/>I'm guessing there will be anew thread in a few hours, maybe...Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06941875334878452635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-70462506420349055452008-10-20T11:58:00.000-04:002008-10-20T11:58:00.000-04:00Ho-ly-fuck. Ralph Goodale as interim leader? When ...Ho-ly-fuck. Ralph Goodale as interim leader? When is the Liberal party going to realize that many of the old 'holdovers' are about as appealing to Canadians as the upcoming flu season? Having said that, I think John MacCallum would be an excellent choice for the position.Omarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12058734544373976550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-17816574293867886862008-10-20T09:26:00.000-04:002008-10-20T09:26:00.000-04:00Thanks for the link. Regardless of what happens, ...Thanks for the link. Regardless of what happens, by popular request I'll be keeping the link to pay off Dion's leadership debt on my sidebar. I tried to find the graphic they did for the $100 revolution, no more big money campaigns. Does anyone have that still?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-36804012145866973552008-10-20T02:13:00.000-04:002008-10-20T02:13:00.000-04:00That said, I still haven't heard a good explanatio...<I>That said, I still haven't heard a good explanation of why Dion is considered to be too far left. Is it because that's what Mr. Harper told you that?</I><BR/><BR/>Him and the (broadly conservative) media. <BR/><BR/>Canada is not, from what I can tell, an especially conservative country. It's just a country with a conservative media and an especially effective conservative party machine. But since both of those can be employed to <I>convince</I> Canadians that they're conservative, well...<BR/><BR/>...if it worked in America, why not in Canada?Demostheneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14552994996411944134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-67873025192824189042008-10-19T22:54:00.000-04:002008-10-19T22:54:00.000-04:00"if you choose a more right wing candidate like Ma..."if you choose a more right wing candidate like Manley or McKenna"<BR/><BR/>You had better hope you can siphon more off the right than you lose on the left (like me who would probably head straight to the Greens). <BR/><BR/>That said, I still haven't heard a good explanation of why Dion is considered to be too far left. Is it because that's what Mr. Harper told you that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-56864218480250195462008-10-19T21:02:00.000-04:002008-10-19T21:02:00.000-04:00I've voted liberal, a lot, in my life. The one sur...I've voted liberal, a lot, in my life. The one sure thing about this election is the glee with which M. Dion is being hung out to dry by "Anonymous senior liberals" as I've said before a pox on both their houses.... <BR/><A HREF="http://yearningmice.blogspot.com/2008/10/habit-of-compromise.html" REL="nofollow">My thoughts on Dion here.</A><BR/>Add me to your list, but perhaps not as a liberal. :)PeterChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09735061912493490485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-5762313412283096232008-10-19T01:35:00.000-04:002008-10-19T01:35:00.000-04:00I see where you are coming from and agree fully Je...I see where you are coming from and agree fully Jeff. There are several issues that need to be addressed. Far too many people were voting against something versus voting for something they can believe in and trust. And far too many people simply not taking the time for whatever reason that moved them.<BR/><BR/>That said, all of the integrity in the world in a leader isn't going to get it done in the current environment. The voter needs to be engaged in the process and know that they are supporting a cause worthy of their time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-6529386558267220422008-10-19T01:31:00.000-04:002008-10-19T01:31:00.000-04:00Lib, Hate to agree with you, but you're right...Lib, <BR/>Hate to agree with you, but you're right. One can do EVERY thing right & still loose as a result of the national campaign. Our EFFing riding was ready, we ran a better campaign than the other parties; that we didn't loose by more is because of our efforts. <BR/>We lost was because the national campaign didn't connected with Canadians.<BR/><BR/>Who hired the national campaign team?<BR/>Who set the time & the agenda for the campaign?<BR/>Who was the face of the campaign for the Liberal Party for this campaign?<BR/><BR/>We need to have a no frills leadership convention (mail in, electronic whatever) & cut-off membership like two weeks after the Leader announces he intention.<BR/><BR/>Then we need to get to work (again).JimmEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03703715618040666970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-60766487293664932122008-10-19T01:10:00.000-04:002008-10-19T01:10:00.000-04:00Drew - thanks for the endorsement of my 11:31 pm c...Drew - thanks for the endorsement of my 11:31 pm comment, but I'm really thinking of this dualism - power mongering vs integrity - as cutting across party lines. There are people in every party who are coldly calculating power mongers. And in every party, it's up to those who believe in integrity to stand up for integrity.<BR/><BR/>In the case of the Liberals, that means putting away the tar and feathers until cooler heads prevail, and the party decides what it wants as its core.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-91363957582906071792008-10-19T00:35:00.000-04:002008-10-19T00:35:00.000-04:00Approx. 1 million voters stayed home on election n...Approx. 1 million voters stayed home on election night, as compared with 2006. The Bloc, Dips and CPC vote count actually went down slightly. The Green gained 300K and the Libs lost 800K. <BR/><BR/>Since 2000, the Dips and Greens have gained approx. 1.5M votes. The CPC vote if you combine the Reform/PC vote has basically been stagnant around 5M votes, with a low of around 4.1M in 2004. The CPC has basically regained the conservative base over time.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, the strategy for the Libs going forward is to try to engage the 600K or so traditional Liberal voters that are deciding to stay home to come out and vote. However, that only brings you back to around 100 seats or so. Therefore, where do you try and increase your vote? dA new leader may attact the traditional Lib voter back out of hibernation, bringing your numbers of seats back to respectable levels. However, if you choose a more right wing candidate like Manley or McKenna then are there enough votes on the right to siphon off? It would seem to me that the party needs to remain close to the center or slightly left to try and siphon off more progressive voters. If you assume that the Greens and Dips have peaked then it is possible. Finally, the party needs to try and engage Canadians that do not traditionally vote.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, (yes Grace) a new leader is not enough. We need policies and a vision that is going to attract those progressive voters, plus we need to wake up those Libs that stayed home. If this is the low point for the Libs at 3.6M, then the Libs have about 1.4M or so votes to troll for in order to regain power. Not sure if this can be accomplished in the next year or so.liberazzihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14798202757576009552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-20509523057753886212008-10-19T00:17:00.000-04:002008-10-19T00:17:00.000-04:00Jeff - Your post 11:31 PM, October 18, 2008 nailed...Jeff - Your post 11:31 PM, October 18, 2008 nailed it right on the head.<BR/><BR/>It's all a matter of values. On the one hand we have a cold calculating PM that has muzzled his entire caucus in the name of keeping the message on point. He's done his homework and done a fine job of bringing Rethuglican style politics to our country.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand we have the left that just doesn't seem to want to realize that if we want our government back from these greedy self-serving Neo-Cons, we're going to have to take the gloves off and fight for it. <BR/><BR/>The million dollar question is - Are we going to sit back and watch others do the fighting and hope it gets done? Or are we going to roll up our sleeves and get into the fight now, before the next election is called and give our party something to fight with. <BR/><BR/>I don't know about you or anybody else, but this time around I'm in a fighting mood.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-6880749312089829072008-10-18T23:38:00.000-04:002008-10-18T23:38:00.000-04:00jonWas he stubborn, or isolated? I wouldn't liste...jon<BR/><BR/>Was he stubborn, or isolated? I wouldn't listen to anybody either, if I knew they were continually whispering. If Dion acted with a siege mentality, it's only a sign of wisdom.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-8807978255384569182008-10-18T23:34:00.000-04:002008-10-18T23:34:00.000-04:00Gayle - You asked me "May I ask why you think he w...Gayle - You asked me "May I ask why you think he will bring the youth and female votes?"<BR/><BR/>Since you asked, when I look at Justin I see youth, confidence, compassion, intelligence, fluent billingualism to the point that there is no difficulty understanding what he says in either official language and he's handsome to boot. I doubt that I really need to explain myself on these points.<BR/><BR/>As I said in my previous post, I have all of the admiration in the world for Stephane and don't doubt his abilities to lead a team of highly qualified people for one second.<BR/><BR/>When I hear my father (a died in the wool Con voter) use not being able to understand Stephane as a reason for not supporting him, I see a problem. Sure, my father is a hypocrite and biggot, but nonetheless he speaks for many Canadians. And that same message was heard far and wide.<BR/><BR/>When I hear my son (a hard working 25 year old) say that he would rather support Layton because of his stated position to do more for the average Canadian, something tells me that the Liberal message has somehow been lost. <BR/><BR/>I worked the election as a Registration Officer and saw who was voting and heard many young people echo the same message as my son. I knew before I walked out the door at 9:30 pm that my riding had gone NDP. And I know why.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-57795944629423797512008-10-18T23:31:00.000-04:002008-10-18T23:31:00.000-04:00To me, this is an epic battle between two politica...To me, this is an epic battle between two political dispositions: cold calculation and power mongering vs integrity and heart. How do we want to live in this country?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-68360544233914445432008-10-18T23:22:00.000-04:002008-10-18T23:22:00.000-04:00good comments. I wonder if Dion's stubborn streak ...good comments. I wonder if Dion's stubborn streak did him in, but he is the least of the Liberal Party's problems. An effective opposition can't be distracted by a leaderhip race.Dr. Jon Slaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04542763831784015895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-74740137613894064722008-10-18T22:37:00.000-04:002008-10-18T22:37:00.000-04:00I was an early supporter of Dion & I remain on...I was an early supporter of Dion & I remain one, most passionately, as any visit to my blog will attest. Very timely post. I have emailed M. Dion, cc-ing info@liberal, and I will be at Stornaway if y'all are going.Eugene Forsey Liberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05538109652483033119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-39484040116914663962008-10-18T22:33:00.000-04:002008-10-18T22:33:00.000-04:00I also remember that Dion wanted an election about...I also remember that Dion wanted an election about a year ago, and I seem to recall that the party executive told him, in effect, that if he went ahead with it then they wouldn't support him. <BR/><BR/>It looks to me like Dion was set up for failure from the get-go because he wasn't the party executive's first choice as leader.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-41188037314813479102008-10-18T21:56:00.000-04:002008-10-18T21:56:00.000-04:00That youtube clip is just plain mockery. The Harpe...That youtube clip is just plain mockery. The Harper Conservatives are a hateful bunch who take total glee in seeing others suffer.<BR/><BR/>As far as they are concerned seeing Liberals tearing each other apart is the kind of blood sport they relish.<BR/><BR/>I am really starting to wonder if these Liberal "insiders" and hateful caucus members who refused to support Dion are actually dumb as posts. Maybe it's just sheer selfish ambition but whatever the motivation, they really do run the risk of completely destroying their party. <BR/><BR/>I imagine Harper is smirking with glee.Beijing Yorkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05579118045254845839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-66660769680752930572008-10-18T21:16:00.000-04:002008-10-18T21:16:00.000-04:00Dion, please don't go -http://ca.youtube.com/w...Dion, please don't go -<BR/><BR/>http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=FFH2HwH5wqI&eurl=http://www.stephentaylor.ca/2008/10/new-conservative-ad/<BR/><BR/>Kind of tells you something when the party opposite WANTS him to stay.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-56849373798780817812008-10-18T20:52:00.000-04:002008-10-18T20:52:00.000-04:00"By the way, not once have a heard anyone say gee ..."By the way, not once have a heard anyone say gee those anonymous Liberals were right."<BR/><BR/>Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy isn't it?<BR/><BR/>Say he is not a leader, refuse to listen to him, refuse to assist him, and then complain when he cannot get anyone to follow him, listen to him or assist him.<BR/><BR/>Those anonymous liberals were never "right". They have always been the problem.<BR/><BR/>I am not saying Dion is the best leader out there, but it bothers me to no end that the "establishment" liberals decided to completely ignore the leadership choice of the delegates. They worked to undermine him from day one. <BR/><BR/>When that happens it is not a leadership problem - it is an organizational problem.<BR/><BR/>I accept that Dion is going. The reason I am concerned about this is that I am absolutely certain the same thing will happen again.Gaylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08112657859825911939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-49560726079443162612008-10-18T19:40:00.000-04:002008-10-18T19:40:00.000-04:00Since the election I've been catching up on my...Since the election I've been catching up on my reading, (and work) & came across this article:<BR/><BR/>http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/14/climatechange-marketturmoil<BR/><BR/>As much as I've been in the tank for Dion, this article makes the case why I feel Dion needs to be replaced - don't know why I didn't see it before. At first reading one might take the opposite POV , but M. Dion's failure was not the Green Shift, or his lack of charisma, or the flaws in the Liberal Party. Rather M. Dion's was not helped by these & other factors, but he failed to make the connection in the imagination of Canadians between a failing economy and our environmental challenges. This is M. Dion's file, his passion, what he based his leadership campaign on; & he failed in HIS cause of reminding Canadians of the environmental challenges we are facing, AND THAT ACTION IS URGENTLY NEEDED. Sadly, it will take someone else to make this case.JimmEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03703715618040666970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-77120606454583084412008-10-18T19:16:00.000-04:002008-10-18T19:16:00.000-04:00Well, well:Off To StornawayWell, well:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://whatdoiknowgrit.blogspot.com/2008/10/trip-to-stornaway.html" REL="nofollow">Off To Stornaway</A>Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-29472129978608586702008-10-18T19:06:00.000-04:002008-10-18T19:06:00.000-04:00The last thing we need is another leadership conte...The last thing we need is another leadership contest and thae fact that many people, especially in one province, can't seem to keep their knife's out of the leader's way, is the reason we lost seats. <BR/><BR/>We need to replace everyone at perm in Qebec not the leader. Stephane needs to stay and fire a few people who were never on board.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-53063449144102053732008-10-18T18:10:00.000-04:002008-10-18T18:10:00.000-04:00kobyHarper has the charisma of a mold spore and he...koby<BR/><BR/>Harper has the charisma of a mold spore and he's Prime Minister.<BR/><BR/>You're not a back stabber, but don't think anyone who disagrees is on the "koolaid", because I understand the challenges well.<BR/><BR/>And, not one of those "anonymous" Liberals have mentioned all the other problems that the party confronts, it's just about posturing and finally getting their "chance", that they waited so long for...Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.com