tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post5698705099787393013..comments2023-10-22T09:18:16.885-04:00Comments on Far and Wide: Waiting On The "Honest Debate"Steve Vhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-74858921675761290102008-07-15T15:10:00.000-04:002008-07-15T15:10:00.000-04:00Honest debate huh.Are you still deleting comments ...Honest debate huh.<BR/><BR/>Are you still deleting comments from your blog that are too harsh (true) about the green shift?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-16053753705887811412008-07-10T17:13:00.000-04:002008-07-10T17:13:00.000-04:00Budd, are all the environmental organizations list...Budd, are all the environmental organizations listed on that report Liberal? I had thought Suzuki was more of an NDP enthusiast until Layton's attack on carbon taxes. He certainly hasn't been that favourable toward the BC Liberals, except on this one action they took of introducing a carbon tax. <BR/><BR/>Which environmental groups exist in Canada that you would say are not biased toward the Liberal party?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-78826903922172714212008-07-10T15:56:00.000-04:002008-07-10T15:56:00.000-04:00catherine, as you well know the "rebuttal" you ref...<B>catherine</B>, as you well know the "rebuttal" you refered to is not some kind of research paper or fact sheet. Rather, it's a series of media talking points, spin lines put together by the Suzuki Foundation and other "environmental" NGOs that are top-heavy with university based, upper middle-class Liberals. Their economist, <B>Prof Mark Jaccard</B>, is one of <B>Premier Gordon M. Campbell's</B> policy proteges, and his company, M K Jaccard and Assocs, has a $120,000 consulting contract with the BC Govt to do economic research on the carbon tax and related issues. <BR/><BR/>So it's hardly very surprising that the talking points include material favourable to those policies, the very policies Prof Jaccard has been promoting and touting in his CanWest op-ed pieces, most of which are actually devoted to smearing Carold James rather than explaining climate change poliices.Budd Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04194826986794514558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-44255650491845951322008-07-10T11:29:00.000-04:002008-07-10T11:29:00.000-04:00I suppose people can try and make this opportunist...I suppose people can try and make this opportunistic argument, but good luck with the optics of a carbon tax proposal proposed just as fuel prices sky rocket. I've heard "suicidial", "bad timing", "stupid", "tough sell" but only the NDP seems to see a transparent vote grab. Good luck with that, I feel pretty confident it will carry ZERO weight outside of NDP circles. It just sounds ridiculous, given the circumstance and the nature of the proposal.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-7108827701015825862008-07-10T11:04:00.000-04:002008-07-10T11:04:00.000-04:00Whooee! Targets, schmargets. Did targets help us m...Whooee! Targets, schmargets. Did targets help us meet our Kyoto obligations?<BR/>Suppose an old codger like JB devides he'd like to extend his lifespan. Three score years and ten are closin' in and it'd be nice to stay above ground a bit longer.<BR/><BR/>In order to live longer, I can start in exercisin' every day. I can smoke fewer funny cigarettes. I can eat less junk food. I can eat more fresh veggies. I can eat less meat. I can walk more often. <BR/><BR/>You get the picture. I can do a lot of things to extend my life and stay healthy. I don't need a target for these things to work.<BR/><BR/>Obese people can go on a diet and lose weight without a hard target.<BR/><BR/>Businesses can become more efficient and profitable without setting targets.<BR/><BR/>Equating a lack of targets with zero progress does not jibe with the facts. It merely echoes a Conservative talking point. Reductions can be made using a carbon tax. Reductions can be made using cap-and-trade.<BR/><BR/>The Greens and Liberals have incorporated cap-and-trade into their environmental policies, along with a carbon tax. Cap-and-trade is not being ruled out. Quite the contrary. It is an additional feature -- a prong in a two-pronged attack on climate change. <BR/><BR/>The best approach if you're serious about climate change is to use as many tools as are available. The Europeans and Scandinavians have shown that carbon taxes and cap'n'trade working simultaneously can and does reduce GHG's. Either tactic works alone. The two work together even better than either one by itself. Rocket science?<BR/><BR/>One of the best <A HREF="http://devinjohnston.ca/blog/2008/07/01/dions-green-shift-not-a-long-term-policy" REL="nofollow">honest debates</A> on the topic can be found a NDP blogger Devin Johnston's blog. <BR/><BR/>JBJimBobbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04603665575714484326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-59909344980868633322008-07-10T08:58:00.000-04:002008-07-10T08:58:00.000-04:00Jurist and Jaytoo, you can read directly what the ...Jurist and Jaytoo, you can read directly what the Canadian environmentalist groups have said about a carbon tax. For example, here is a <A HREF="http://www.davidsuzuki.org/files/climate/BC_Carbon_Tax_Reality_Check.pdf" REL="nofollow">rebuttal</A> which addresses the BC NDP's claims about a carbon tax, including the claim that it won't do anything. Note that it is endorsed by eight environmental organizations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-29143614428043462862008-07-10T08:35:00.000-04:002008-07-10T08:35:00.000-04:00Yes, because a carbon tax is just so darn attracti...<I>Yes, because a carbon tax is just so darn attractive politically. What an opportunist.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, to echo the Jurist, yes. Dion has broken opposition consensus, shelved his own well-founded convictions on carbon pricing, and adopted the less effective approach specifically to try to deflect narratives on his ineffective leadership -- to try, as always, to posit a "two choice election" (Dion or Harper) that wedges out Layton. <BR/><BR/>And so far, at least among the genetically disappointing punditocracy (if not on Main St.), the strategy seems to be working pretty well. As it is with some ENGOs. Even though all agree that $40/ton won't do the job that urgently needs doing. (Even Dion's own tax forecast numbers presume zero carbon reductions at $40/ton.) Are they offering this "qualified support" to Dion's thing becaue they believe a theoretical future Lib government would continue to increase the carbon tax until it actually achieves emission reductions? That anyone could have this faith in the Libs -- the do-nothing pioneers -- is brow-furrowing weird.Jaytoohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027122148435844420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-52543877745178974702008-07-10T07:07:00.000-04:002008-07-10T07:07:00.000-04:00Cap and trade is more definite on emissions and le...Cap and trade is more definite on emissions and less certain on costs and carbon tax is more definite on costs and less certain on emissions. Carbon tax can also be implemented sooner. So if you want to start right away and want to make sure that you protect (or improve the situation for) people with low-incomes, then a good strategy is to start with a modest carbon tax which will steadily increase and work toward implementing a cap and trade. This is Dion's plan. <BR/><BR/>I think Dion came around to seeing that. While cap and trade is good for connecting directly to your targets, it can wreak havoc on low-income families, particularly if the caps are set to ensure there is a big effect quickly. You might argue if you only care about the environment, and not about poverty, this is fine. But I have a difficult time believing the NDP is really saying that, although, I admit, with the BC axe-the-tax, the Ontario freeze-property-taxes, and the federal cap-and-trade without any of the money being used to offset increased costs for those with low incomes, I have started to wonder.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-7414174011583712072008-07-09T23:46:00.000-04:002008-07-09T23:46:00.000-04:00BH,Doing nothing will reduce emissions??? Yes, yo...BH,<BR/><BR/>Doing nothing will reduce emissions??? Yes, you have used the key premise many NDPers have told me will keep emissions down: conservation. Of course, we are conserving. Look at the gas prices, people are driving less. Market forces do work. Stephen Harper the neoliberal economist is right all along!!!<BR/><BR/>How about this? Dion was impressed recently by the Mintz and Olewiler carbon tax, the one that Kenney was dismissing. It promised lower taxes and ordinary Canadians can keep more money in their pockets if they conserve more. Much better economic system than what Desiree proposed two years ago. We can surely have an honest debate on the merits of this principle, not a flame war that can descend into name calling. Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-65250326522750304592008-07-09T23:06:00.000-04:002008-07-09T23:06:00.000-04:00Yes, because a carbon tax is just so darn attracti...<I>Yes, because a carbon tax is just so darn attractive politically. What an opportunist.</I><BR/><BR/>Obviously Dion appears to think so, since it certainly wasn't a principle he ever held before this year. (Interesting argument though in implying that because a carbon tax is a tough political sell, the NDP can't fairly question whether it's good policy.)Greg Fingashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01506686081291502115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-65965155418028938282008-07-09T22:56:00.000-04:002008-07-09T22:56:00.000-04:00"So why has Dion ignored science in favour of poli..."So why has Dion ignored science in favour of politics?"<BR/><BR/>Yes, because a carbon tax is just so darn attractive politically. What an opportunist.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-4638051184511186532008-07-09T22:47:00.000-04:002008-07-09T22:47:00.000-04:00Let's give the Liberals the benefit of the doubt: ...Let's give the Liberals the benefit of the doubt: The carbon tax may reduce emissions. But so does doing nothing sometimes (note that emissions have actually gone down under the Conservatives).<BR/><BR/>But doing nothing is not a plan to meet our global targets. And neither is a carbon tax which translates into "you can pollute all you want, as long as you can pay for it."<BR/><BR/>The best approach if you are serious about meeting those targets is Jack Layton's cap and trade approach.<BR/><BR/>Desiree McGraw - the environment expert who penned the Liberals "renewal" report on the environment - told Liberals Canada only needs one carbon pricing plan and it's a cap and trade system that is most likely to meet our targets. <BR/><BR/>So why has Dion ignored science in favour of politics?Blogging Horsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07814673326602261801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-37476531280457069492008-07-09T22:34:00.000-04:002008-07-09T22:34:00.000-04:00Cam's post on my post, about what Steve would have...Cam's post on my post, about what Steve would have us believe, even though the post wasn't about what Steve believes, it was about the stupid leading environmentalists in Canada who have been duped into believing that Dion's plan will reduce greenhouse gases. <A HREF="http://cameronholmstrom.blogspot.com/2008/07/liberal-kool-aid-must-be-strong-today.html" REL="nofollow">Unbelievable</A>.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.com