tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post6153524796947299684..comments2023-10-22T09:18:16.885-04:00Comments on Far and Wide: Dion/May CriticismSteve Vhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-55367983325220797362007-04-15T18:39:00.000-04:002007-04-15T18:39:00.000-04:00Steve,Lewis is the doyen of the NDP. There is an ...Steve,<BR/><BR/>Lewis is the doyen of the NDP. There is an interest for Lewis, Broadbent, and Layton to dominate the party before it gets swallowed up by the Waffle fanatics.<BR/><BR/>On the one hand, I can see them laughing at the Liberals for making deals with Buzz Hargrove, Elizabeth May, Maude Barlow, and David Orchard to unite the left. But if these deals become an alternative left coalition, the three aforementioned Dippers will be scared as their support erodes.<BR/><BR/>Dion is taking a risk in forging this alternative left coalition. If he pulls through, you can see Dion in five years being as politically shrewd as PM Harper.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-58035768642085522642007-04-14T16:48:00.000-04:002007-04-14T16:48:00.000-04:00Why go to Lewis, and not Layton? I'm not buying t...Why go to Lewis, and not Layton? I'm not buying the logic. If she didn't go to Layton, it was because she was told in no uncertain terms, don't bother. She calls the leader of the Liberals, but she calls an old NDP supporter, instead of their leader? Sounds dysfunctional from here.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-59131121153335563572007-04-14T16:21:00.000-04:002007-04-14T16:21:00.000-04:00wooops just figurng this out. Last post was from ...wooops just figurng this out. Last post was from meAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-36937242661439112672007-04-14T16:20:00.000-04:002007-04-14T16:20:00.000-04:00May explicitly said "he wouldn't take my calls." ...May explicitly said "he wouldn't take my calls." Heard that one with my own ears. Either she's lying and never actually called Layton for him to refuse, or Layton and Lewis and Broadbent are. My money is on May having watched her on the choice issue spinning story after story. <BR/>That's not splitting hairs that is revealing in the extreme.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-77235668006498983752007-04-14T16:11:00.000-04:002007-04-14T16:11:00.000-04:00"Well Layton has said May only ever contacted Step..."Well Layton has said May only ever contacted Stephen Lewis and staffers."<BR/><BR/>Broadbent seemed to know all about it, so I assume Layton did. It's splitting hairs in my mind, if there is an effort to speak on mutual causes, then Layton should at least meet. He didn't have any problem meeting with Harper on the CAA did he? And if this is all Liberal spin, then why have I heard many NDP supporters express concern at Layton's footsie with Harper. It was all very transparent from here, and you didn't need much of a critical eye to pickup on the "backroom" "muck". Layton has shown himself to be just as partisan as anyone, which makes the claims of a different standard all the more ridiculous.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-27124647819982301472007-04-14T15:50:00.000-04:002007-04-14T15:50:00.000-04:00Well Layton has said May only ever contacted Steph...Well Layton has said May only ever contacted Stephen Lewis and staffers. So some one is lying. I guess we are just betting on different horse on who the liar is. <BR/>As well I don't buy into this Layton-Harper stuff that's just Liberal talking points, not reality. Layton showed leadership on the Clean Air Act in my mind forcing both the Conservatives and Liberals to put their money where the mouth is so to speak. What did Dion and May do instead, oh yeah play partisan politics with it. I'm looking for action not rhetoric. And as much as it suprises me, when I look at the reality if the deeds that's all May and Dion have on offer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-35214944540423828162007-04-14T15:38:00.000-04:002007-04-14T15:38:00.000-04:00robertI too have voted Green and NDP in the past, ...robert<BR/><BR/>I too have voted Green and NDP in the past, so partisanship doesn't really enter into my recent conclusion- Layton has engaged in a dangerous dance with Harper since prior to the last election, in some misguided attempt to undermine the Liberals and help his own electoral prospects. The entire "backroom" argument is intellectual dishonest, not to mention hypocritical, given the embarrassing partisanship Layton has continually engaged in. <BR/><BR/>I care about the environment, which is the primary reason I support this gathering. Rather than by cynicial, I see an opportunity, but it would appear others are more concerned about their own survival than the planet's. Answer the phone Jack.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-3112971120384828332007-04-14T15:33:00.000-04:002007-04-14T15:33:00.000-04:00Well there are a few anon and I am only the last t...Well there are a few anon and I am only the last two. I don't have a google account, and then I missed that I could post a name with option two. (I only figured it out now as a matter of fact.) So I will add it.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure I can even follow your post. But you seem to be under impression that something has somehow been saved. This doesn't do anything but help the Greens and Liberals on a power squeeze. I'm a complete nonpartisan environmental activist, but I have to say the only party in my neck of the woods that has actually proposed positive, practical change on the issues I care about was the NDP and I voted in the last election for them. In the last provincial Ontario election I voted Green becuase I really liked the local candidate. I'm just callin it like I see it without the silly partisan spin that would call someone who has dedicated his life to environmental issues long before they were fashionable a 'vendu' whether I agreed with his political philosophy or notAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-33051607095654539652007-04-14T14:38:00.000-04:002007-04-14T14:38:00.000-04:00Yes I Know Steve V It is just self Defense o...Yes I Know Steve V It is just self Defense of the "RIGHT" including the NDP /what is ONLY JACK at this moment ../what is willing to be propping up Harper and his few minions.. just to show for Martin (???) They CAN DO IT.. even if that means selling out all their ideas inherited from the old Democrats.. what a shame .!!! Jack is really the true VENDU and he is stuck with Harper now,,,, he did something what is unforgivable... and his party will repeat the Old Conservative's faith after Mulrony.. NDP sold its soul <BR/><BR/>Be aware I am good at predictions . /no I am not a witch …lololol<BR/><BR/>The Dion –May cooperation is really a turning point. Will have a Domino effect .<BR/><BR/>By the way Anonymous it would be a decent improvement t if you sign your real name besides of being ANON <BR/>Are you favoring the veils?? Or what,.??<BR/><BR/>marta from VancouverAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-22655086723104854832007-04-14T11:47:00.000-04:002007-04-14T11:47:00.000-04:00In addittion to my comment. This is from today's ...In addittion to my comment. This is from today's editoral in that well known NDP rag the Toronto Star. (Rolly eye icon needed here)<BR/>"New Democrat Leader Jack Layton has denounced the pact as "backroom wheeling and dealing" that cheats the voters of a full range of choices. He is right. However much Canada may be threatened by climate change, limiting voters' options is not the way to combat it."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-85475616675550089252007-04-14T11:32:00.000-04:002007-04-14T11:32:00.000-04:00Wow.I started looking around the net to see what k...Wow.<BR/>I started looking around the net to see what kind of reactions there are and this is one of the strangest I have to say. Seems people here can't get pass their personal dislike of Jack Layton to see the big picture.<BR/>May and Dion come in as elitists. They don't get that people matter. This is not some kind of move to save the environment (read Chantel Hebert for example). This is about squeezing out the NDP for political advantage. The naivety is bizarre. How can you look at those comments from May and Dion and not see them for the unmitigated BS they are. And why should a party (the NDP) who has had to fight the Liberals hammer and tong to get any forward momentum on environmental issues now lay down and say -oh well vague half-promises are alright. The only person I see standing up for real change on the environment is Jack Layton. May has put her own personal ego ahead of the environment, her potential constituents and her party. <BR/>Shame on her for selling out for so little and supporting a party that is only slightly better in its RHETORIC on the environment than the current government.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-2864427575444993612007-04-14T09:05:00.000-04:002007-04-14T09:05:00.000-04:00"I am Laughing hard when I see how all the guys on..."I am Laughing hard when I see how all the guys on the other side is frothing and shouting and giving advise to Dion.. Like they want to save Him???l"<BR/><BR/>marta<BR/><BR/>They are just trying to help, help their own cause that is.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-91988891120768638572007-04-14T01:27:00.000-04:002007-04-14T01:27:00.000-04:00Good going Dion and May It is morally the right t...Good going Dion and May It is morally the right thing and strategically also great..<BR/><BR/> 65% has to win.. simply as is..to save Canada …<BR/><BR/> I am Laughing hard when I see how all the guys on the other side is frothing and shouting and giving advise to Dion.. Like they want to save Him???l <BR/><BR/><BR/>martaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-63227409815864229202007-04-14T00:05:00.000-04:002007-04-14T00:05:00.000-04:00Let's see most of media I have seen today have ben...Let's see most of media I have seen today have benn talking to liberals disaffected Dion just like they used to with the alliance members under Day. I don't think I missed on this one. This vindetta against Jack will not serve the liberals well at all. Win the battle lose the war.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-19225330503874974682007-04-13T23:52:00.000-04:002007-04-13T23:52:00.000-04:00Sorry, yes joe, nice try. He swings and misses :)...Sorry, yes joe, nice try. He swings and misses :)Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-59558398607251860722007-04-13T23:51:00.000-04:002007-04-13T23:51:00.000-04:00There is a Ralph Nader quality developing here for...There is a Ralph Nader quality developing here for Layton. The funny part, Dion is getting criticized for moving the Liberals left, and we have a government that is every bit as right as the American neocons, yet we are to believe the Layton "all the same" arguments. That simply doesn't pass the smell test anymore, given the players. Martin, you could at least say it with a straight face, Dion, oh come on now. If the NDP digs in here, they are on the highwire.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-39541399707096766772007-04-13T23:39:00.000-04:002007-04-13T23:39:00.000-04:00joe, nice try.joe, nice try.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04291881352139075405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-39237572941499159692007-04-13T23:36:00.000-04:002007-04-13T23:36:00.000-04:00Strategically speaking, you're right Steve as it r...Strategically speaking, you're right Steve as it relates to Layton.<BR/><BR/>Strictly speaking however, if you <I>really</I> cared about getting things done re' the environment, then you would join May and Dion in this riding and together, continue to go forward with your own platforms on this issue throughout the country, all the while being clear that Harper does not have a plan and having him in government leads us nowhere.<BR/><BR/>I mean come on, only 30 something per cent of voters back Harper, but the rest of the country does not and this should be cited by all progressives, while trying to obtain their seats. That would be honest and I think that is what May and Dion put forward. <BR/><BR/>Layton is blinded at the moment and perhaps for all time.<BR/><BR/>As I said, the consummate deal maker calling a deal "sordid". Too rich.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04291881352139075405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-25053164693439655262007-04-13T23:25:00.000-04:002007-04-13T23:25:00.000-04:00Speaking of short sighted here; does Dion have pol...Speaking of short sighted here; does Dion have political advisors to whom he listens or is this folly of his own making? It has all the short sighted markings of the Paul Martin meltdown where every fight was so important that the battle was lost. This will only serve to drive Liberal supporters to other parties or else to sit on their hands until the disaster that is Dion's leadership is relegated to the garbage heap of political history. Nothing personal against Dion but his political tin ear is evident again and it does not serve the party he is leading at all. All the spin in the world will not wipe out the fact that Dion wants a member from another party in parliment rather than a member of the party who put him into the position of leadership. Then when you think who Dion is wanting in parliment - the elected leader of a national political party who says that she is not good enough to be Prime Minister so vote for someone else. Liberal leader Dion says you can't vote Liberal in Central Nova and Green leader May says don't vote Green nationally because I wouldn't be as good a leader as Dion. It doesn't work and it will only weaken Dion's grasp on the Liberal leadership and if May retains the leadership of the Greens it will be because no one else wants the job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-53857795070860086772007-04-13T23:02:00.000-04:002007-04-13T23:02:00.000-04:00Hey knb. I don't understand Layton here, I think ...Hey knb. I don't understand Layton here, I think he is very shortsighted. Why wouldn't you want to talk with May? If the public face of mutual co-operation on the environment to "get things done" is true, then it would seem to me you would be open to all possiblities, if it had the chance of moving the agenda. Simply scoffing is bullshit, and it speaks volumes to what is really going on here. The NDP hierarchy has determined the Greens are a threat, and they will resist any commonality, because their chief concern is seat totals. I'm sorry, but Layton's rhetoric looks exactly that, rhetoric, that shows no resemblance to the reality. Newsflash, despite the protests, the NDP is just as politically motivated and calculating as those dastardly Liberals and Conservatives.<BR/><BR/>If you're smart, you engage May, knowing that there is some chemistry with the Liberals. You undercut Dion, and make the case in talks with the Greens. If May offers a dialogue, you jump all over it. Instead, we get piss and vinegar, as though there is only one group of progressives. Layton doesn't seem to have any problems with backroom talks when it comes Harper. What, those two haven't talked strategy? Come on.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-52271208583628495592007-04-13T22:53:00.000-04:002007-04-13T22:53:00.000-04:00That's really it Steve. May call's it as she see'...That's really it Steve. May call's it as she see's it and it is tough to argue with that.<BR/><BR/>There are many things I disagree with her on, as I'm sure Dion does, but hell, I disagree with family members too. On the points that are bigger than us, we agree and can put aside the rest to that end.<BR/><BR/>It was sad how Layton reacted wasn't it? I had hoped that he wouldn't stoop that low, though I cannot say I held out much expectation. I really think he's put that party in jeopardy now. That's too bad because I think there is a place for the NDP, Jack I think, forgot what that was and got too mired.<BR/><BR/>I wish I knew how that seems to happen to so many. Better yet, I wish I knew the secret of keeping your feet on the ground, because I'd bottle it.<BR/><BR/>I think most of us are tired of the games and politicians treating serious issues as if it were a game. I don't think Dion and May did that today. There is politics involved, to be sure, but it was serious and it was not a game.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04291881352139075405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-32004907532198191552007-04-13T22:19:00.000-04:002007-04-13T22:19:00.000-04:00juristI don't think May's decision to run against ...jurist<BR/><BR/>I don't think May's decision to run against MacKay was particularly wise, but I take her reasoning at face value, without prescribing all these hidden motivations. The reason I like May is because she is forthright, you don't get the sense of internal calculation in her comments, and she represents a breath of fresh air in Canadian politics. I believe May, call me naive, but that's the sense I get.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-23742416502000890572007-04-13T22:13:00.000-04:002007-04-13T22:13:00.000-04:00scotianI didn't really mention the risks, because ...scotian<BR/><BR/>I didn't really mention the risks, because they are self-evident. I'm taking the risk-reward equation, given Dion's current standing, I find it hard to condemn this as a bad move.<BR/><BR/><BR/>anon<BR/><BR/>"Well, if it is such a bad idea, why the press conferences and sad faces?"<BR/><BR/>Yes, why the quickly held pressers? Why did the government find it necessary to grab Monte Solberg and put him in front of a mic, was he the only Minister in Ottawa? That suggests a need for damage control, and it also speaks to how serious they take this new threat.<BR/><BR/>I just caught some more of Layton's comments, and it was the low road, sprinkled with a bitter tone, hardly attractive, and again quite telling.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"I have spent the last number of years knowing the Liberals talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. Now to my disappointment I find that that's okay with May."<BR/><BR/>It's not just May, many prominent environmentalists had nothing but praise for Dion in the final days of the Liberal reign. I agree the Liberals failed for the most part, but Dion seemed to maintain some credibility with the environmental community, which is relevant to what is going on here. Bottomline, Elizabeth May doesn't go within a nautical mile of Dion if she genuinely sees a mere talking the talk scenario. If people try to teardown May as a political opportunist, they will find she has allies who can speak to conviction. People can chirp about being "environmental activists", I've done a thing or two as well, but I doubt they can come close to May's pedigree, so questioning her motivations is lame at best in my mind.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-63861183037758595842007-04-13T22:10:00.000-04:002007-04-13T22:10:00.000-04:00If that logic is true, then why did May run in a L...<I>If that logic is true, then why did May run in a Liberal held seat during the by-election?</I><BR/><BR/>Might that have something to do with the fact that only two seats were open for the by-elections, the other in Quebec where May would have to do most of her campaigning in her second language? I'd think we can distinguish between May's selection of seats when she can choose any in the country, and her selection given only those two options...Greg Fingashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01506686081291502115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-27563442450398040752007-04-13T21:26:00.000-04:002007-04-13T21:26:00.000-04:00May worked for the Minister of the Environment und...<I>May worked for the Minister of the Environment under Mulroney and has been all over the moon positive about him.</I><BR/><BR/>Political master? Now that would be a bit misleading, no? She was a lawyer, who advised the Environment Minister and quit when dam projects were going forward without environmental assessment. She did indeed give Mulroney credit for his initiatives, wouldn't someone concerned with environment give kudos to a government when they do something right?<BR/><BR/>How exactly was Dion a failed Environment Minister, given his tenure. Oh, it's all the fashion now to blame the entire Liberal record on Dion, but any thinking person knows that is rhetoric.<BR/><BR/>For the record, I think the Liberals <I>should</I> be criticised for their long delay and inaction, but Dion took that head on and got to work. That was then, this is now.<BR/><BR/>If this does work, I think you're wrong in your assessment of the outcome. Consolidate Harper's power? Perhaps in one sense, but MacKay is in no way, Harper's heir apparent, imo. Oh and speaking of backroom deals to all the con's out there, Orchard/MacKay ring a bell?<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I think the outcome, in spite of your new assessment of May, is that she is one of the most respected Environmentalists that we have in Canada. Imagine if Suzuki jumped aboard? They both want Dion to do more, but they see him as committed and honest. <BR/><BR/>I heard May say that she's put many calls into Layton's office and he does not return them? Why is that? (This goes back to when she was elected to the present.)<BR/><BR/>As I said, I respect your opinion, but mine is that Jack Layton is one of the most vainglorious politicians I've ever seen. He's not about principle, he's about Jack looking good. Sadly, he looks as mean and ugly as the con's while he yanks the sheets over to his side of the bed he's lying in with them.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04291881352139075405noreply@blogger.com