tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post7098982360809106366..comments2023-10-22T09:18:16.885-04:00Comments on Far and Wide: September 17, 2007Steve Vhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-37777402799237601812011-05-05T17:23:40.688-04:002011-05-05T17:23:40.688-04:00lance
Solutions aren't absolute, which seems ...lance<br /><br />Solutions aren't absolute, which seems to be your arbitary bar here. A bit to black and white for my tastes.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-44270487821195909792011-05-05T16:32:58.551-04:002011-05-05T16:32:58.551-04:00No Kirk, you missed my point.
If you had said tha...No Kirk, you missed my point.<br /><br />If you had said that potentially finding a means to start addressing repeat bad habits could be measured for effectiveness through different types of rehabilitation I would have agreed with you.<br /><br />You didn't though. You said fact based solutions would fix health care, and crime, and all sorts of really really big things that involve non-factual variables.<br /><br />The arrogance I referenced was your hyperbole that right up until you mentioned it, everything that had ever been done to health-care was just winging it.<br /><br />Simply said, sometimes there are no 'solutions' regardless of how much soft-science you throw at a problem.lancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14481248175442820597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-61235250091316361022011-05-05T09:48:19.100-04:002011-05-05T09:48:19.100-04:00Liberals won't make hard choices, so the party...<i>Liberals won't make hard choices, so the party has nothing to offer those hungering for freedom from conglomerate control of western civilization. Too bad.<br /><br />Liberalism as a political philosophy was once one of the greatest sequences of ideas in the history of the world, now it is gutless. </i><br /><br />Yes, something needs to be done about corporations. We're playing a race to the bottom with them -- everyone competing to give them the biggest tax cuts. Any ideas on how? What are the hard choices that you think would be best on handling a situation like this?sharonapple88https://www.blogger.com/profile/11149226422042041129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-6490430006691457052011-05-05T07:06:53.558-04:002011-05-05T07:06:53.558-04:00Just reading the comments here and I realize why t...Just reading the comments here and I realize why the Liberal Party will never become anything but a kinder gentler corporatist party. <br /><br />There really is no hope for liberal democracy when liberals are blind to corporatism: it's why liberal Parties failed throughout the world, they aid and abet corporatism, so you might just as well vote conservative, or fight for democracy with our lives. <br /><br />That's why you lost the election, your right wing gutted any democratic renewal package as a threat to the corporatist control of the party, and then they voted conservative.And the party had nothing to offer democrats.<br /><br />And now you think that avoiding ideological confrontations is the way forward. An ideology is a series of ideas. Wm Lyon Mackenzie wrote that "a mind of character is created by the sequence of its ideas." <br /><br />Liberalism lost all its intellectual rigour when the conscienceless pursuit of power and profit at the heart of new fascism became the presupposition at the centre of liberal economics, when you allowed conservatives to describe corporatism as neo-liberalism. <br /><br />If liberalism doesn't come to grips with its presuppositions about democracy and corporatism, none of its ideas will form a sequence worth voting for. It's 'either or'time, either Liberals are corporatist, or they are democrats. <br /><br />And clearly, opposing fascism is too unpragmatic for the Liberal Party of Canada.<br /><br />Liberalism really has become an abandoned cause, it has no practitioners willing to fight and die for it.<br /><br />Liberals won't make hard choices, so the party has nothing to offer those hungering for freedom from conglomerate control of western civilization. Too bad.<br /><br />Liberalism as a political philosophy was once one of the greatest sequences of ideas in the history of the world, now it is gutless.Jerry Pragerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054428435443042500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-71312083370139671352011-05-05T02:08:46.965-04:002011-05-05T02:08:46.965-04:00And, Herman, I agree with you completely and made ...And, Herman, I agree with you completely and made the same point in my posts. Or your post restated my main point...Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876442776701189706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-35615840390004383622011-05-05T02:03:15.775-04:002011-05-05T02:03:15.775-04:00lance, thanks for proving my point about ideologue...lance, thanks for proving my point about ideologues.<br /><br />And you don't think "social sciences" can deal in facts?<br /><br />And you think health is a social science?<br /><br />You don't think that recidivism rates can be measured for various approaches to rehabilitation? etc...<br /><br />And nice completely unsupported use of that old insult "arrogant". Again you prove a point I made earlier.<br /><br />But I guess you'll be calling everybody who proposes a solution to a problem now "arrogant" or do you just reserve that for those who you instinctively oppose?<br /><br />The truth is people like you are the arrogant ones. You are always quick to insult and dismiss others often with boilerplate insults such as "arrogant" when you never can defend your own position or even back up your criticisms with anything concrete but then that must be because you think referring to facts is "arrogance" and unsupported insults are a more humble, self effacing approach...Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876442776701189706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-46039572118438676942011-05-05T01:55:25.449-04:002011-05-05T01:55:25.449-04:00"I'm a Liberal because I believe in fact ...<i>"I'm a Liberal because I believe in fact based solutions to crime, the economy, health care and to social problems in general."</i><br /><br />We've been damn good on the intellectualism front pretty much from Paul Martin forward (see. Campaign platform 2004). EVERYONE in this country knows Liberals are full of smart people, intellectuals, policy wonks, our base in the past has generally been university educated urbanites.<br /><br />Facts and research tell us that national childcare and carbon taxes etc.. can be effective policy choices in theory and practice, if you spend time researching. But they have been unequivocally rejected in the previous three elections. <br /><br />I think there are whole list of reasons for this, but a primary one has been an inability by our leaders or anyone in the party to truly translate policy ideas into emotional connection at the personal and household level<br />The heart is a more powerful motivator to vote than the mind, and until we find a way to connect both (Chretien –“ Im the regular guy like you and I know whats important to you.” and Truedau – “We are all proud Canadians and we need our own constitution to prove it” did this VERY well) we will not gain any traction AT all. <br /><br />In fact, I would say the last leader that truly had any success in basing an election campaign on a distinct policy idea was Mulroney and Free Trade – 1988. And despite all his flaws, Mulroney was an awesome vision and sales guy, who backed it up with his humble beginnings in Quebec story. <br /><br />Look at this election. Did Canadians care that Harper’s platform had promises that were dependent on reducing deficits (which likely means they will never happen?). <br /><br />I had professional, university educated co-workers, Vancouver urbanites, who “disliked” the fact that Harper was spending so much money on jets and jails, yet they still broke to the Conservatives because at the end of the day, Harper was still competent and they were sick of elections and they got scared of the NDP surge. Harper tapped into anger and Jack tapped into hope. The orange crush voters completely ignored the NDP platform, but they voted for Jack’s warmth.<br /><br />If your differentiator is going to be policy, its go big or go home. Imagine a platform in which Ignatieff went out there and said “in my government, you are never ever going to have to pay for drugs that you need to save your life” (which means a national pharmacare program – but you wouldn’t start your argument to the electorate by saying “drug costs are the primary reason that health care costs are increasing, so therefore we need a government paid program”).<br /> <br />National childcare? I dont give a f5#% that studies in Quebec and Europe show kids are smarter and better off with government childcare. Rather, if you're an independent career minded women gunning for the top, we will make sure you won’t have to chose between your career and your kids, you can have both. If you want to be stay at home mom, we will still support you.<br /><br />National food strategy? Visit every god damn farm in this country and tell farmers personally the work they are doing is critical to the survival and health of this country and we will support you by getting you healthy products into the hands of Canadians and advertising that fact its made in Canada.<br /><br />Emotional appeal that represents what you stand for vs facts. The family pack was a disaster. It was a “lets pick the demographic groups we need to win and given them a few things to be happy about” platform. Disgusting.<br /><br />Vision and connection are 1000x more important than minute policy ideas in a campaign. In my humble opinion of course.Hermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03652662872892968335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-56422176322711765482011-05-04T22:45:40.410-04:002011-05-04T22:45:40.410-04:00I hear days ago do we need acentrist party??? O...I hear days ago do we need acentrist party??? Oh my goodness... just Harper and the far far left ??? Yes If you want to keep Hrper in power for the next two decade??? Play with the Layton's gang as the ONLY alternative...<br />By the way Harper will do everything imaginable to give credit for the NDP just to boost their chances ... the only tool Harper needs to keep power ...<br />just let play out all this and in a few monts we will se the two "working together" to keep Harper forever.. <br />Quebeck simply wanted to tUrn the table on English Canada or the rest of Canada .. and taking the NDP was a clever turn ... <br />this is all unreal simple gaming.... and yes the Separatists will return sooner then we can think all over again. this is Not reality just a gameshow.<br />And Harper has every cards thanks jack.Damehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15548065189088501935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-88534045822380451512011-05-04T22:19:12.977-04:002011-05-04T22:19:12.977-04:00"I'm a Liberal because I believe in fact ..."I'm a Liberal because I believe in fact based solutions to crime, the economy, health care and to social problems in general."<br /><br />Might as well have said you were squishy in the head.<br /><br />'fact based' when your list is all social sciences.<br /><br />'solutions' - arrogant much?lancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14481248175442820597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-47374701318883041762011-05-04T20:46:23.872-04:002011-05-04T20:46:23.872-04:00Ideologues already know the answer before you ques...<i>Ideologues already know the answer before you question, and that's where it falls apart. People tend to mock pragmatism, but it's what you just described above, you let the evidence guide rather than rigid ideology.</i><br /><br />"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"<br />- John Maynard Keynessharonapple88https://www.blogger.com/profile/11149226422042041129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-62630144434753283442011-05-04T20:41:09.402-04:002011-05-04T20:41:09.402-04:00It will be fascinating to see others enjoy the gla...<i>It will be fascinating to see others enjoy the glare for a while. With us decimated, it's like kicking a puppy, so the press won't be to critical, their zeal will be trained on the NDP. Just watch, that's the deal with official opposition.</i><br /><br />They wanted it, and ready or not here it comes. <br /><br />The Mulclair story is astounding though. He's been in politics for decades. He should know how this could be used. This is perfect for an attack ad to make the NDP seem like a bunch of crackpots. The Conservatives have already sent Chris Alexander, the former ambassador to Afghanistan to counter this comment.sharonapple88https://www.blogger.com/profile/11149226422042041129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-26507960823250817862011-05-04T20:15:54.012-04:002011-05-04T20:15:54.012-04:00It will be fascinating to see others enjoy the gla...It will be fascinating to see others enjoy the glare for a while. With us decimated, it's like kicking a puppy, so the press won't be to critical, their zeal will be trained on the NDP. Just watch, that's the deal with official opposition.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-43141573857275337122011-05-04T20:10:21.538-04:002011-05-04T20:10:21.538-04:00Yes saw that piece already sharonapple88 and not s...<i>Yes saw that piece already sharonapple88 and not surprised, I'm sure she'll be a source of entertainment for a while yet.</i><br /><br />It's funny. The NDP organized a press conference for their new MPs to put a positive spin on their young MPs, but it seems as though Brosseau's nominaton controversy jumped to the front page. <br /><br />Another story from today -- Mulclair was on the CBC where he said he doubts pictures of a dead <a href="http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gsjUBZTF0SjtjJdJ_aD4_7gqlbEQ?docId=6758076" rel="nofollow">bin Laden exist.</a> The story's gone a bit global -- seen it mentioned in the <a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2014962344_apcncanadabinladenpictures.html" rel="nofollow">Seattle Times</a>, and it's now up on Wikipedia page on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Osama_bin_Laden_conspiracy_theories" rel="nofollow">Death of Osama bin Laden conspiracy theories.</a>sharonapple88https://www.blogger.com/profile/11149226422042041129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-25898366584978332142011-05-04T19:29:10.506-04:002011-05-04T19:29:10.506-04:00"I don't start with something that says &..."I don't start with something that says "X" is the solution, I start with "research the solution to this problem"."<br /><br />I think you just described what can make the Liberal Party a valuable contribution. Ideologues already know the answer before you question, and that's where it falls apart. People tend to mock pragmatism, but it's what you just described above, you let the evidence guide rather than rigid ideology. I see it as intellectual evolution, ideology is really like religion and just as flawed.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-88626999359228774402011-05-04T18:58:16.220-04:002011-05-04T18:58:16.220-04:00Just to finish what I started earlier here...
Pol...Just to finish what I started earlier here...<br /><br />Politics is often dominated by the "ideologicals" and the "authoritarians". They then bring others to vote for them by speaking the language and addressing the prime drives of other groups whether they're emotional or identity based.<br /><br />I'm a Liberal because I believe in fact based solutions to crime, the economy, health care and to social problems in general. I don't start with something that says "X" is the solution, I start with "research the solution to this problem". This makes me a "non-ideological" above all else and at odds with the true "ideologicals" of the supposed "left" and "right" who view such a position as unprincipled. I, however, still hold moral values of fairness, justice, kindness and forgiveness. I just don't respond well to those who say the way to obtain those values is based on an ideological supposition.<br /><br />Liberals may be "centrist" to most but define that more clearly and I think you see it is reason over emotion and facts over beliefs. This can lead us to surprising places but we do not shy away from those conclusions (hopefully).<br /><br />This does not make us slow moving leftists or watered down right wingers or in any way just half way between the 2 extremes.<br /><br />However, we still have to recognize that we need to sell our ideas, our reasoned solutions, to others who approach the world from a more emotional basis or other identity based position or who have already had other ideological based solutions sold to them. To do that we need to do that "connect" thing that Ignatieff started too late on and Layton's always working on. Our solutions need to be put in the words of emotion as well as reason.<br /><br />You can tell great, thrilling TRUE stories but it is how you tell them that matters most to the audience.Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876442776701189706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-14775547311945927042011-05-04T18:48:49.861-04:002011-05-04T18:48:49.861-04:00Reviewing what I had wrote earlier about relentles...Reviewing what I had wrote earlier about relentlessly attacking the NDP, well take a good look at <a href="http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/985085--reality-show-stars-students-museum-guides-meet-the-new-ndp-mps" rel="nofollow">the NDP's Quebec caucus.</a><br /><br />On second thought, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Just worry about rebuilding the Liberal party as the gong-show runs for 4 seasons on Parliament Hill.Tof KWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15756310841374198056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-28170986741338422982011-05-04T17:40:44.283-04:002011-05-04T17:40:44.283-04:00Ont Harris protests every week, but now because of...Ont Harris protests every week, but now because of G20 malfeasance the police will take them down hard: super prisons are going to fill, people are going to be killed, and little by little bit that dark thing behind Stephen's eyes is going to take over, once the few months of pretending to be moderate passes. This is going to get more and more psycho, and there will be blood and tyranny.Jerry Pragerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054428435443042500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-89074688573663477732011-05-04T16:09:13.703-04:002011-05-04T16:09:13.703-04:00Yes saw that piece already sharonapple88 and not s...Yes saw that piece already sharonapple88 and not surprised, I'm sure she'll be a source of entertainment for a while yet. Reminds me of the 23-yr old poly-sci student that got elected in Oxford county for the NDP when Bob Rae swept Ontario. Well, except he actually spoke the language of prominence in that riding.Tof KWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15756310841374198056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-5823040876876835352011-05-04T16:02:51.191-04:002011-05-04T16:02:51.191-04:00. Is it inconceivable that the NDP could propose l...<i>. Is it inconceivable that the NDP could propose legislation via a private member's bill and have it pass in the House after exposure to and pressure from the public via rallies, marches and the like? Just curious what people thought.</i><br /><br />Good example here on how people just got irritated at <a href="http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0011020" rel="nofollow">the protesters against Mike Harris.</a> <br /><br />"The anxiety - and the anger - over the days of protest was also reflected in a poll of 400 Torontonians conducted early last week by the Angus Reid Group. It showed that while nearly half of respondents believed the protesters were well-intentioned and had legitimate concerns, fully 67 per cent opposed their plan to shut down the city. That impatience was sometimes evident on the streets on Friday. "They're all a bunch of nuts," declared Marjorie Stephenson, glaring from her car at picketers who impeded her progress in downtown Toronto. "What do they want? I tell them to go to Russia if they want to be communists." <br /><br />Please also note that Mike Harris was elected to another majority after this article.sharonapple88https://www.blogger.com/profile/11149226422042041129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-28883283021930908142011-05-04T15:58:01.533-04:002011-05-04T15:58:01.533-04:00Next, relentlessly attack the NDP. Hey this strate...<i>Next, relentlessly attack the NDP. Hey this strategy worked for Layton! Seriously, this is a group of lightweights with contradictory campaign promises offered in different regions. Highlight the incompetence and the hypocrisy.</i><br /><br />It looks like this might be starting early. The media smells blood in the water. <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/vacationing-ndp-candidate-accused-of-falsifying-nomination-papers/article2009898/comments/" rel="nofollow">Questions raised about rookie NDP MP's papers.</a> <br /><br /><i>I was just wondering if you thought it possible/probable that the NDP may be able to bring pressure to bear on the government through the use of their connections to activists, labour unions, student unions, etc.? </i><br /><br />See Ontario under Mike Harris. There were protests every week practically at Queen's Park. Harris didn't care and kept on plowing along.sharonapple88https://www.blogger.com/profile/11149226422042041129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-13414202166099711522011-05-04T15:49:35.920-04:002011-05-04T15:49:35.920-04:00I think people are dreaming if they actually belie...I think people are dreaming if they actually believe they can extract anything from Harper. He'll do what he wants, and if he throws a bone it's because he sees political upside, not because of what the NDP does or doesn't do. People need to seriously clue in to the reality here, because the NDP and their supporters are embarrassingly nieve so far to be honest.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-12415613687793892762011-05-04T15:45:40.792-04:002011-05-04T15:45:40.792-04:00There are a number of postings regarding Jack Layt...There are a number of postings regarding Jack Layton and his comments about "working with the government" or "influencing the government" and the general consensus here seems to be that because the Conservatives have a majority that the NDP will not be able to do anything to shift the government's direction. I was just wondering if you thought it possible/probable that the NDP may be able to bring pressure to bear on the government through the use of their connections to activists, labour unions, student unions, etc.? We've never had an Official Opposition party that has had these potential resources available to them before. Is it inconceivable that the NDP could propose legislation via a private member's bill and have it pass in the House after exposure to and pressure from the public via rallies, marches and the like? Just curious what people thought.Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12518872868840961931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-39478939401133853522011-05-04T15:24:33.898-04:002011-05-04T15:24:33.898-04:00Fred, when I said "The NDP over performed, ou...Fred, when I said "The NDP over performed, outdid everyone's expectations." I was referring into turning support into votes as many said you needed a "ground game" to make that happen while the actual NDP vote showed no signs of problems turning support into actual votes at all.<br /><br />The NDP got 42.87% of the votes cast in Quebec. They had no problem turning support into votes. They showed no slippage and exceeded many poll numbers despite not having that "ground game" that the pundits were all talking about.Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876442776701189706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-74511816130966427562011-05-04T14:45:31.674-04:002011-05-04T14:45:31.674-04:00What you deliberately ignore is that the conservat...<i>What you deliberately ignore is that the conservative 'base' isn't nearly as 'rabid' as you would like to believe.</i><br /><br />Fred from BC, yes I was just thinking what a moderate bunch you all are when Terry Milewski was drowned out with chants of "Kill the CBC" just for trying to do his job and asking difficult questions of our PM. Funny too, 'cause you guys seemed to like Terry when he was grilling Paul Martin & Jean Chretien before him.Tof KWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15756310841374198056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-42217456144527345272011-05-04T14:36:25.209-04:002011-05-04T14:36:25.209-04:00We need to recognize that the tribes aren't re...<i>We need to recognize that the tribes aren't really divided into left-right as much as they are divided into more emotionally defined camps. The "fear" camp, the "tough" camp, the "hard working (ad executive)" camp etc.</i><br /><br />Maybe. Thought of some of those points in this article on <a href="http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/952895--rob-oliphant-takes-on-king-multiculturalism" rel="nofollow">Rob Oliphant.</a> Oliphant tried to appeal to people's minds. Kenney stirs passions. I knew Oliphant was going to lose this one.sharonapple88https://www.blogger.com/profile/11149226422042041129noreply@blogger.com