tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post8080348496492659334..comments2023-10-22T09:18:16.885-04:00Comments on Far and Wide: Please Stop TalkingSteve Vhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-34220372857947383002009-02-26T14:36:00.000-05:002009-02-26T14:36:00.000-05:00"There is a discernible split within the liberal p..."There is a discernible split within the liberal party."<BR/><BR/>Even if that's true, it's been that way since I was in diapers, so...Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-4514688515360067792009-02-26T14:33:00.000-05:002009-02-26T14:33:00.000-05:00steve, was it something I said? There is a discern...steve, was it something I said? <BR/><BR/>There is a discernible split within the liberal party. I thought that the comment about splitting up the party wasn't a bad one. I mean, I am sure with 100% certainty that Rae represents me much more than Iggy ever will. Gerard Kennedy is the man, political expediency can go the way of the dodo as far as I'm concerned.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-88511886421362637182009-02-26T14:28:00.000-05:002009-02-26T14:28:00.000-05:00Next question for the Bloc, Bernard Bigras, anothe...Next question for the Bloc, Bernard Bigras, another question on the environment, AGAIN taking a shot at Ignatieff. Calls Ignatieff an oil sands lobbyist.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-39886931078523224372009-02-26T14:26:00.001-05:002009-02-26T14:26:00.001-05:00Gilles Duceppe's FIRST question today in QP, a ref...Gilles Duceppe's FIRST question today in QP, a reference to the NG story, wherein he chides the Liberals and Conservatives.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-37760986602660334302009-02-26T13:48:00.000-05:002009-02-26T13:48:00.000-05:00Apparently three-quarters of Albertans want a mora...Apparently three-quarters of Albertans want a moratorium on Tar Sands expansion until the environmental issues are resolved. I don't think Iggy stands to get many votes from them for beating the Athabasca drum.<BR/><BR/>I think Ignatieff is dividing the LPC membership as no one has before him.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-30506061932904286442009-02-26T13:39:00.000-05:002009-02-26T13:39:00.000-05:00for the record:www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article...for the record:<BR/><BR/>www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/528337<BR/><BR/>Alberta's oilsands like Mordor: Maude Barlow<BR/><BR/>"Maude Barlow, a Canadian who has been appointed to advise the United Nations on water issues, says a recent flight over Alberta's oilsands reminded her of Mordor from the movie 'Lord of the Rings.' <BR/><BR/>Leo Broderick, from Charlottetown, says it looked like an ATOMIC BOMB had wiped out all the vegetation around the oilsands mines and he CAN'T BELIEVE CANADIANS HAVE ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN.<BR/><BR/>Barlow, who is also chairwoman of the COUNCIL OF CANADIANS, said the vast waste ponds used by oilsands plants remind her of the fictional blackened and barren landscape in the fantasy land of darkness and fear, ruled by the Dark Lord Sauron.<BR/><BR/>Barlow said she was shocked to see steam rising from the ground, no birds in the sky and no animals when she made her first-ever visit to the region. <BR/><BR/>'The air is foul, the water is being drained and poisoned and giant tailing ponds line the Athabasca River,' she said at a news conference Friday.<BR/><BR/>THE COUNCIL IS CALLING FOR A MORATORIUM ON ANY NEW OILSANDS DEVELOPMENT until thorough assessments are done on how such projects affect humans and the environment."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-43100495685759697612009-02-26T13:29:00.000-05:002009-02-26T13:29:00.000-05:00Trevor, I can't tell if you're being serious or sa...Trevor, I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. The point is that Albertans 1) aren't going to be shifting allegiances towards the liberal party anytime soon, and 2) won't accept any pandering (or criticism) from Ignatieff, and their reaction to whatever comments leave Iggy's mouth are going to be virtually the same. (I was actually talking about Conservatives coast to coast, not just in their traditional stomping grounds of the prairies.) The oilsands are a blight on our nation, and it is Iggy's responsibility to champion a more responsible means of doing this kind of business. (Well, he did say that they need to clean up their act, it was the pandering part of it that is irking sensible-minded liberals.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-25275698731773078612009-02-26T12:20:00.000-05:002009-02-26T12:20:00.000-05:00Too funny - Jimbobby with his stupid backwoods tal...Too funny - Jimbobby with his stupid backwoods talk - is a Green supporter anyway. So, no loss there.<BR/><BR/>The west don't want to be trashed - they want in and they want to be considered just as much as Quebec.<BR/><BR/>Most Anons are Anons that are on the hate Iggy campaign trail - no loss there.<BR/><BR/>...sigh.... <BR/><BR/>MarieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-55283578399193017422009-02-26T10:53:00.000-05:002009-02-26T10:53:00.000-05:00Here's the full transcript of his scrum. This wasn...Here's the full transcript of his scrum. This wasn't a mistake - he was asked the same question 8-times and answered the same way each time. <BR/><BR/>Question: M. Ignatieff, le National Geographic dresse un portrait très -- du Canada comme un délinquant environnemental. Est-ce que c'est un tort irréparable à la réputation du Canada?<BR/><BR/>Michael Ignatieff: Je tire pas mes conclusions sur une industrie canadienne des propos de National Geographic ou qui que ce soit où nous sommes avec les sables bitumineux. C'est une industrie énormément importante pas seulement pour l'Alberta mais pour tout le pays. Par exemple, quand je suis à Fort McMurray j'entends pas mal de Québécois qui travaillent dans. Ce que nous avons dit depuis le début c'est que cette industrie doit devenir vert et du point de vue on peut l'améliorer au point de vue environnemental et sociaux, pas simplement que ça soit plus vert mais ça soit un environnement meilleur pour les autochtones à Fort Chip et aussi pour les travailleurs dans l'industrie.<BR/><BR/>Question: (Inaudible) au Canada, vous acceptez pas (inaudible).<BR/><BR/>Michael Ignatieff: Non, pas du tout. Pas du tout. Nous sommes un super puissance énergétique. Nous avons des défis environnementaux qu'il faut affronter et nous, le Parti libéral, nous a toujours dit qu'il faut améliorer la performance environnementale des sables bitumineux. Mais ce que j'accepte pas avec le Bloc c'est qu'il critique sans cesse une industrie qui emploie pas mal de Québécois.<BR/><BR/>Question: (Inaudible) à la réputation du Canada à l'étranger?<BR/><BR/>Michael Ignatieff: Écoutez, la réputation du Canada est plus fort qu'un article dans le National Geographic ou n'importe autre. Nous sommes un grand pays, bon Dieu, et je tire pas de leçons des journaux d'ailleurs.<BR/><BR/>(Plusieurs questions à la fois.)<BR/><BR/>Michael Ignatieff: Oh, oh, la la la la la. <BR/><BR/>Question: À cause de ce reportage, même si vous n'en tirez pas de leçons, est-ce que ça va être plus difficile de vendre l'idée des sables bitumineux à l'étranger?<BR/><BR/>Michael Ignatieff: Écoutez, nous devons nettoyer les sables bitumineux. Nous devons rendre cette industrie plus vert et plus sustainable -- quel est le mot?<BR/><BR/>Question: Durable.<BR/><BR/>Michael Ignatieff: Durable, durable. Que ça soit plus durable du point de vue social et environnement. Nous, les Libéraux, nous avons toujours dit ça. Nous avons fortement critiqué le gouvernement conservateur pour sa négligence dans ce secteur mais je suis quand même fier du fait que nous sommes -- nous avons une industrie d'une telle importance et je prends pas de leçons des gens d'ailleurs.<BR/><BR/>Now in English, National Geographic is not going to teach me any lessons about the oil sands. This is a huge industry. It employs Canadians from coast to coast. We have industry -- we have oil reserves that are going to last for the whole of the 21st century. We are where we are. We've got to clean it up and we've got to make it a sustainable place to work and live not only for the Aboriginal populations there but for the workers who live there. My concern is that at the moment it's barely environmentally sustainable and it's barely socially sustainable. The Conservative government has done nothing about this. We need to move forward. But am I proud of this industry? You bet. It's a world leader. We just need to make it better. But I don't take lessons from the National Geographic.<BR/><BR/>Question: Le Macleans rapporte que monsieur -- que votre équipe (inaudible) M. Wiseman au Québec. Est-ce que c'est vrai?<BR/><BR/>Michael Ignatieff: Écoutes, il y a des gens qui croient qu'il écrit des discours pour moi. À ma connaissance j'ai pas de contact avec M. Wiseman et je lis pas ses discours, ça c'est sûr.<BR/><BR/>Question: M. Flaherty admet qu'il va y avoir des erreurs lorsque l'argent pour le genre de stimulation va être dépensé. Est-ce que c'est normal qu'il y ait des erreurs (inaudible) accélérer les dépenses?<BR/><BR/>Michael Ignatieff: C'est justement pour ça qu'à la fin du mois de mars on va demander des comptes du gouvernement sur les dépenses pour être sûr qu'il n'y a pas de gaspillage, pour être sûr que quand tu dépenses l'argent c'est pas simplement des annonces publicitaires mais que la marchandise soit vraiment livrée aux comtés, aux maires, aux villes. Alors c'est justement pour ça qu'un parti d'opposition doit bien faire son travail.<BR/><BR/>Question: On the oil sands, sir, are you comfortable with National Geographic's depiction of the oil sands? What is a fair depiction? Was it an accurate depiction?<BR/><BR/>Michael Ignatieff: I'm not in the business of awarding journalistic awards for accuracy. What I'm saying is this is an industry that has to become socially sustainable for those who work in it and the communities around it and it has to become environmentally sustainable and every Canadian knows we have challenges. But this is an industry which will determine the geo-strategic place of Canada in the 21st century. We've got to clean it up. We've got to smarten it up but we don't take lessons from other people's foreign coverage.<BR/><BR/>Question: (Inaudible) c'est la faute de qui si les sables bitumineux (inaudible)?<BR/><BR/>Michael Ignatieff: J'ai dit depuis pas mal longtemps que le Parti conservateur n'a rien fait pour améliorer la performance environnementale des sables bitumineux. C'est la faute principalement du gouvernement conservateur mais il y a aussi beaucoup d'autres gens qui doivent jouer son rôle, prendre ses responsabilités. Et ce que je vais pas faire, ce que je vais pas faire, c'est que je vais pas diviser le pays avec un discours anti-sables bitumineux. Nous sommes un seul pays qui s'appelle le Canada. Nous avons besoin d'une énergie -- d'une industrie énergétique performante et durable et c'est pour ça que je cherche des mesures valables dans le gouvernement libéral.<BR/><BR/>Question: In terms of the report card both Minister Baird and Minister Flaherty have repeatedly said it's now become obvious the budget will only pass just days before March the 11th or 12th when you expect the report card. Mr. Baird has said that new monies won't flow before that. What can you reasonably hope to expect on that report card?<BR/><BR/>Michael Ignatieff: If you date back the performance of this government on deficit, employment, infrastructure spending, we can give by the end of March Canadians a very clear report card of this government's performance up to date.<BR/><BR/>Question: (Inaudible)<BR/><BR/>Michael Ignatieff: At the end of March, 23rd, 24th of March we'll be able to report. And then we'll set up the criteria for subsequent reports if they pass the first test. But we feel, you know, you forget this government's been in power for three years. They got a record as long as both of my arms and it'll be on that that they will be judged. Thanks a lot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-22202543298995913682009-02-26T10:32:00.000-05:002009-02-26T10:32:00.000-05:00He's another "no vision but the Liberal Party as n...He's another "no vision but the Liberal Party as natural governing party kind of leader." <BR/><BR/>indeed. he's writing his own attack ads.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-49064521549225139462009-02-26T09:32:00.000-05:002009-02-26T09:32:00.000-05:00Whooee! I been holdin' off on judgin' Iggy, until ...Whooee! I been holdin' off on judgin' Iggy, until now. I accepted the explanation for the "condones torture" accusation. I accepted the rejection of an LPC-NDP coalition. I accepted the passing of the budget to keep us from an electoral crisis.<BR/><BR/>I cannot accept this rejection of information that challenges the oil economy. I cannot accept his refusal to consider the problems the tar sands are creating for <A HREF="http://www.greenparty.ca/en/media-release/2009-02-18/cancer-fears-downplayed-health-officials" REL="nofollow">innocent victims</A>. I cannot accept his attitude that money and jobs are more important than the life of the planet. <BR/><BR/>The tar sands is a gang rape of Mother Earth. Harper and Ignatieff are the lookout men, keeping the public at bay while their corporate masters rape and pillage with abandon.<BR/><BR/>If I don't see a grassroots Liberal membership reaction to and rejection of Ignatieff's endorsement of the world's worst environmentally damaging project, I will really lose any faith that the Liberals will respect the planet any better than the Cons have done. Sad. <BR/><BR/>JBJimBobbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04603665575714484326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-13494333829235075532009-02-26T09:28:00.000-05:002009-02-26T09:28:00.000-05:00A) the tar sands are really more like Isengard tha...A) the tar sands are really more like Isengard than Mordor, although dark Satanic Mills is William Blake discussing the beginnings of the industrial rape of Albion - England.<BR/>B) the West is not just oil barons and their minions, so just because some of us think the tar sands and the political economy they represent are evil, does not mean we think the West is evil. <BR/>C)the place Iggy is going to suffer most is that he is going to drive off young voters. They're the most intensely concerned with the environment, and they are still idealistic enough to place long term gain against short term pain, no matter how bad the economy gets next election.<BR/>D) the Greens, not the NDP will benefit by Iggy's crossing back over the environmental divide where Dion so boldly took the party in the name of the future.<BR/>E)Iggy is losing me on a regular basis. He's another "no vision but the Liberal Party as natural governing party kind of leader." I got off that bandwagon. And so have a lot of other people, and some, like the young, who got on with Dion, will get off with Iggy.Jerry Pragerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054428435443042500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-45598982000966719282009-02-26T09:17:00.000-05:002009-02-26T09:17:00.000-05:00C'mon - don't you think Iggy could turn this aroun...C'mon - don't you think Iggy could turn this around on the Conservatives? They had years and years in Alberta to clean up their act. Harper protects them and the US oil companies.<BR/><BR/>Ignatieff could promote the greening and saving of jobs for Albertans. He could promote that Alberta should look into other areas to make their money - because oil will be dead in a few years.<BR/><BR/>Attack and attack all you want - there are a lot of people that need the jobs.<BR/><BR/>He could also turn it around on the greedy, self-serving "US" owned companies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-90280682418575626182009-02-26T09:11:00.000-05:002009-02-26T09:11:00.000-05:00I guess I can grok the strategy angle - kind of......I guess I can grok the strategy angle - kind of...<BR/><BR/>But, is it too much to ask for to hear some inspiring words from our political leaders? At least once in a while? <BR/><BR/>Still not sure how I can vote for somebody when what he says makes me feel ill!<BR/><BR/>Compare to Obama's speech on Wednedsay - and, well, there's no comparison. Obama's policies are not perfect either, but at least he seems to have some vision.LNeumannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07360967260991183192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-18856590168411284182009-02-26T02:47:00.000-05:002009-02-26T02:47:00.000-05:00I take Ignatieff's comments in the context of the ...I take Ignatieff's comments in the context of the global meltdown -- to bad mouth one of the few motors still turning, despite all its flaws, you are insulting not just Albertans but a whole lot of other people fearful for their livelihoods. Doesn't mean that there isn't ways or plans to address the SERIOUS damage that the tarsand extraction is doing to all those around it... Yes, he could have couched his language a little different. But look at the facts, there are parties to the right and the left, and which one has the most disatisfied supporters at this moment? Where is the growth? If this is a pure political exercise, it is artfully done. Not that I didn't cringe when I read it. Now, if he's saying just that (with no ideas and policies) come a campaign, then I see trouble ahead.burlivespipehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18048415779214466831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-77664992732137621952009-02-26T01:14:00.000-05:002009-02-26T01:14:00.000-05:00"Albertans can threaten Ottawa with Separatism all..."Albertans can threaten Ottawa with Separatism all they want, that means squat in Washington. What is Stelmach going to do, threaten to join China?"<BR/><BR/>Well lets ignore the fact that Albertans have pretty much shut up and paid the price (equalization) for decades. There is no real separatist threat from Alberta. Listen to what Steve said, there are many more seats available to the Libs in Quebec if they bash Alberta as usual. Not enough seats to form government, certainly not west of Ontario, but hey it's a start!<BR/><BR/>"support for iggy is going to diminish for defending "Mordor", and the number of people flocking to support the ndp will only increase. there is no point to pandering to albertans and conservatives,"<BR/><BR/>That's right, you fight those evil Westerners.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-91422213978881645632009-02-26T00:57:00.000-05:002009-02-26T00:57:00.000-05:00"the number of people flocking to support the ndp ..."the number of people flocking to support the ndp will only increase"<BR/><BR/>Yeah because the potential NDP supporters flocked to the Liberals when given an extremely progressive environmental option in the last election. I understand why the Liberals are fishing to the right now ... even if I don't completely agree with some of the message.<BR/><BR/>I hate to continue with the blame game, but I can't help but keep feeling a bit of anger towards the NDP. As a center-left Liberal, and as someone who once briefly flirted with the NDP, I can't see what anyone saw in Jack Layton over Stephane Dion.<BR/><BR/>To be sure, the blame squarely lies on the shoulders of those who voted CPC because ... ummm, still haven't really figured it out ... low taxes?<BR/><BR/>That's not to say that Dion and the Liberals don't deserve some blame too. They didn't exactly reach out to everyone in the party - there a lot of paranoia - and allowed the bully to continuously kick sand in their face.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-5040157862495312032009-02-26T00:41:00.000-05:002009-02-26T00:41:00.000-05:00Fair enough, the ndp's mirroring of the conservati...Fair enough, the ndp's mirroring of the conservative line on the green shift was particularly shameful. All the more reason to not alienate people with a sense of rationality, who, let's be perfectly honest, make up the base of support for the Liberals. Iggy should be inspiring people, not pandering to those for whom politics is a grudge match rather than a dialogue. Iggy must realize that he's going to get rapped by the right regardless of the stance he takes. If the cognitive dissonance within the liberal party is the question, then Rae really is the answer. To me, at least.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-58639672331816179412009-02-26T00:23:00.000-05:002009-02-26T00:23:00.000-05:00Anon, Bob Rae's not the answer. There is a person ...Anon, Bob Rae's not the answer. There is a person who has the intellect, integrity, patriotism and grit to lead this party - a person who could become one of Canada's truly great prime ministers. Her name is Louise Arbour.<BR/><BR/>She has an intellect superior to Ignatieff's but she also brings experience, abiding integry and proven courage. She's everything Iggy has going for him and everything he doesn't.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-10230146086006594042009-02-26T00:19:00.000-05:002009-02-26T00:19:00.000-05:00"the number of people flocking to support the ndp ..."the number of people flocking to support the ndp will only increase."<BR/><BR/>Yes, because the NDP wasn't pandering, not to mention fear mongering, all in the name of political expediency. Don't believe me, just ask the environmentalists, who watched with awe as Layton puppeted the Harper attack lines. May might get some mileage, I'm certain Duceppe will pounce, Layton not so sure.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-81195726628252891492009-02-26T00:10:00.000-05:002009-02-26T00:10:00.000-05:00support for iggy is going to diminish for defendin...support for iggy is going to diminish for defending "Mordor", and the number of people flocking to support the ndp will only increase. there is no point to pandering to albertans and conservatives, their minds are already made up, if anything ignatieff's words will only reinforce their inflated sense of ... whatever you want to call it. And if he does end up flip flopping on this issue (similarities with Kerry go further than just appearances) he'll lose more support. Where's Rae already?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-26057343793895880732009-02-25T23:41:00.000-05:002009-02-25T23:41:00.000-05:00"It seems, however, that the CPC have begun their ..."It seems, however, that the CPC have begun their framing of Iggy --- and I worry that Canadians are going to fall for it (again). I hope I'm wrong."<BR/><BR/>I've never understood this passive opinion, as though we merely sit in the corner, whilst the masters have their way. We learned from Dion, and I get no sense whatsoever that this crowd doesn't know how to hit back. We're doing some framing to, you can't view things in isolation.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-77792382207935274892009-02-25T23:39:00.000-05:002009-02-25T23:39:00.000-05:00IanFair enough, but there is some logic in the bel...Ian<BR/><BR/>Fair enough, but there is some logic in the belief that you don't start introducing amendments because one, where does it stop, two, do you really want to own it?Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-92146440941535176572009-02-25T23:38:00.000-05:002009-02-25T23:38:00.000-05:00"Only a complete idiot of an official opposition l..."Only a complete idiot of an official opposition leader doesn't support this budget, under the circumstances that were at hand."<BR/><BR/>Unless, of course, that opposition leader was Dion - who could have taken the brunt of any damage that may have come from installing a coalition government, at which point strong environmental policy could have been enacted, and the Liberal leadership could have proceeded as more than a coronation.<BR/><BR/>Even though I was, and to a degree still am, a staunch Dion supporter - I'm not trying to just be sour grapes here. I worry that the Liberal Party made a big mistake with the way they unceremoniously pushed Dion out.<BR/><BR/>To be sure, I still hope Ignatieff can pull things around. It seems, however, that the CPC have begun their framing of Iggy --- and I worry that Canadians are going to fall for it (again). I hope I'm wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-91222282913631714832009-02-25T23:37:00.000-05:002009-02-25T23:37:00.000-05:00Here's another way to look at it, nevermind the po...Here's another way to look at it, nevermind the policy. If you could pick one issue that the Conservatives are perceived to be the weakest on, what would it be? They have the least amount of credibility on this file, so why would the Liberals think it wise to mirror the Conservative rhetoric, particularly when their BASE is your main audience? Why sully yourself when the only benefit, is the least attainable. I'm reminded of a Hebert comment, where she said a few weeks ago, if not for this file, the Cons probably could have got their majority. Duceppe is rubbing his palms.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.com