tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post116415352499315393..comments2023-10-22T09:18:16.885-04:00Comments on Far and Wide: IncompetenceSteve Vhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164241549069035142006-11-22T19:25:00.000-05:002006-11-22T19:25:00.000-05:00As analogy, if I yell "The bridge is out!" and Amb...<I>As analogy, if I yell "The bridge is out!" and Ambrose doesn't even touch the brake, then regardless of whether braking would have been a sufficient response she clearly doesn't understand the problem.</I><BR/><BR/>Good line...Olafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12434267803807108634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164230273461307232006-11-22T16:17:00.000-05:002006-11-22T16:17:00.000-05:00To you, a lack of desire to act strongly enough ag...<I>To you, a lack of desire to act strongly enough against global warming is an indication that she doesn't understand the topic, which doesn't follow.</I><BR/><BR/>Please recall my earlier comment: in Steve's post it's not the policies or actions themselves, it's that she doesn't appear to understand them. The injection of disagreement over policy in this discussion is entirely yours.<BR/><BR/>However, since you do bring it up, I am forced to wonder how well she could understand the problem of global warming and still do damage control for a government that has chosen to do nothing about it. I'll set aside your "strongly enough" qualification - the difference between the "do something" and "do nothing" options is pretty stark.<BR/><BR/>As analogy, if I yell "The bridge is out!" and Ambrose doesn't even touch the brake, then regardless of whether braking would have been a sufficient response she clearly doesn't understand the problem.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally I largely agree with your last comment: there's little point in getting Ambrose to resign as it wouldn't change her government's policies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164226655158808062006-11-22T15:17:00.000-05:002006-11-22T15:17:00.000-05:00Adam,That's very nice. We're still, however, inter...Adam,<BR/><BR/><I>That's very nice. We're still, however, interested in any evidence that she understands the problem of global warming, or the Canadian government's efforts to comply with (or evade) the Kyoto Protocol</I><BR/><BR/>See, this is the point. To you, a lack of desire to act strongly enough against global warming is an indication that she doesn't understand the topic, which doesn't follow. <BR/><BR/>I can't defend Ambrose's missteps completely, and won't try to. I don't know what happened with the $100m credit thing, although I do suspect that it wasn't her who composed her speech before the committee, but rather a bureaucrat, as is how things usually work.<BR/><BR/>Regarding her mischaracterization of Wysham's comments, here's the quote from the article:<BR/><BR/><I>Ambrose made reference to the think tank on Thursday during a parliamentary committee arguing that the mechanism, which allows countries to get credits for investments in developing nations to reduce emissions, had no accountability.</I><BR/><BR/>Is this untrue? When providing evidence against one aspect of a policy choice, need one give a complete understanding of the quoted sources opinion of the broader topic? No, of course not. <BR/><BR/>If she's making the point that the system is unaccountable, she is free to quote whoever shares that opinion, whether or not they share all opinions on the Kyoto protocol.<BR/><BR/>We all do this: we select and provide evidence that supports our position, where it supports our position, and we fail to provide evidence to the contrary. That is how arguments are made. If she said something like "this institute supports the Conservative governments environmental platform", she would be misleading. If she says "like us, this institute thinks that Kyoto trading system is unaccountable", so long as it did in fact say this which has not been disputed, than she is being accurate and making an argument.<BR/><BR/>My point is that we can't take a disagreement on policy as indication of understanding.<BR/><BR/>Now, Steve has pointed out a number of substantial flubs, and makes a strong argument. I agree that there seemed to be no plan at the Nairobi conference, and that she should be held accountable for other mistakes. I just don't think it's grounds for dismissal or resignation. <BR/><BR/>I think the conservatives have put themselves in a very tough position on the environment by not taking the political implications seriously enough from the get go, however I think this reflects less on Rona as it does the government at large, and a leadership that should have made it a priority but didn't. She has had to answer for a lot that she had little control over.<BR/><BR/>I don't think she's unintelligent or incompetent, I just think that she's had to do damage control since day one, because the Conservatives didn't take the path they should have. That's my take.Olafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12434267803807108634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164225908964357022006-11-22T15:05:00.000-05:002006-11-22T15:05:00.000-05:00Unlike Ti-guy, who has resolved all of the worlds ...<I>Unlike Ti-guy, who has resolved all of the worlds most complex issues in his head long ago (if only he'd share his wisdom!)...</I><BR/><BR/>You only needed to ask, Grasshopper. And that wisdom is this...when people with power <I>lie</I> they are no longer credible and no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt.Ti-Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09555895370351135155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164222567076479472006-11-22T14:09:00.000-05:002006-11-22T14:09:00.000-05:00Olaf:I think you assume too much about her level o...Olaf:<BR/><BR/><I>I think you assume too much about her level of knowledge and intelligence, based on an assessment of her governments policies.</I><BR/><BR/>I know it's been a while, but re-read Steve's post at the top of the page. What part of that is an assessment based on her government's policies? It's more an assessment that she <B>doesn't know what those policies are</B> or else <B>lies about them</B>.<BR/><BR/><I>I'll remind the crowd that she has a masters degree in political science, and is fluently tri-lingual.</I><BR/><BR/>That's very nice. We're still, however, interested in any evidence that she understands the problem of global warming, or the Canadian government's efforts to comply with (or evade) the Kyoto Protocol. I suppose this is evidence that she misunderstands the issue in three languages.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164220752059380822006-11-22T13:39:00.000-05:002006-11-22T13:39:00.000-05:00Adam,if the NDP were to select a finance minister ...Adam,<BR/><BR/><I>if the NDP were to select a finance minister who was unfamiliar with the idea of a "budget" and couldn't understand what senior bureaucrats were telling her, I would be quite upset.</I><BR/><BR/>Do you think that Rona is unfamiliar with the term "environment" or "global warming"? I think you assume too much about her level of knowledge and intelligence, based on an assessment of her governments policies. I'll remind the crowd that she has a masters degree in political science, and is fluently tri-lingual. She's no dunce, as seems to be the general consensus.<BR/><BR/>Unlike Ti-guy, who has resolved all of the worlds most complex issues in his head long ago (if only he'd share his wisdom!), I still have much too learn, and I'll admit it. Same with Rona, perhaps that's why I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt here. <BR/><BR/>I think she's at least intelligent, which is more than you can say for a lot of Conservative (and Liberal and NDP) MPs, and although perhaps not the best choice for Environment minister, I can tolerate her.Olafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12434267803807108634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164214809152584602006-11-22T12:00:00.000-05:002006-11-22T12:00:00.000-05:00Surprise, surprise. Mention Olaf and the topic ma...Surprise, surprise. Mention Olaf and the topic magically turns into...<I>How's Olaf's learning curve today?</I><BR/><BR/>I dismissed that post of his on Rona Ambrose precisely because the core thesis was so wrong: It can't be a about disagreeing with Rona's (short-cut here for 'her government's') policies because there aren't any. That much is clear. It was the same with national child-care.<BR/><BR/>It's the typical Conservative ruse of pretending they're doing something about an issue while doing absolutely nothing.Ti-Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09555895370351135155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164213776335439912006-11-22T11:42:00.000-05:002006-11-22T11:42:00.000-05:00Olaf:On the contrary, if the NDP were to select a ...Olaf:<BR/><BR/>On the contrary, if the NDP were to select a finance minister who was unfamiliar with the idea of a "budget" and couldn't understand what senior bureaucrats were telling her, I would be quite upset.<BR/><BR/>There's no prerequisite for the Environment Minister to be an "environmentalist". However, they should be able to understand the main environmental issues and be familiar with their government's policies on them...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164185298534842092006-11-22T03:48:00.000-05:002006-11-22T03:48:00.000-05:00A very informative post, Far&Wide. I'd recommend ...A very informative post, Far&Wide. I'd recommend it especially for all those home-schooled children learning about the world and its environment.<BR/>It is also very revealing about government, for those interested.<BR/>Rona Ambrose is incompetent. Even more so if she allowed herself to be muzzled by Harper.<BR/>An elected Minister of this country has a duty to this country above and beyond any party loyalties.<BR/>She mislead Committee, she mislead the people of Canada, she tried to hoodwink the world, and according to QP today Ambrose and Lunn exchanged emails regarding directives to remove the words and phrase Kyoto and Climate Change from the Government of Canada's website.<BR/>What authority do either of these Ministers of Parliament have to alter or change that which belongs to the entirety of Canada? None.<BR/>Incompetence is a kind word in the face of more serious implications.<BR/>Yes, the transparency is becoming clear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164173703011344022006-11-22T00:35:00.000-05:002006-11-22T00:35:00.000-05:00Also,Sorry to dwell on this, but the "some kind of...Also,<BR/><BR/>Sorry to dwell on this, but the "some kind of rightie-tightie mentor" which Dana refers to is Rene Bol, who is a wildly intelligent, very informative and generally left wing regular commenter on my site, who challenges me on just about every post.Olafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12434267803807108634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164173434802988752006-11-22T00:30:00.000-05:002006-11-22T00:30:00.000-05:00Steve,Apparently I've double commented... oh the e...Steve,<BR/><BR/>Apparently I've double commented... oh the embarrassment!!!<BR/><BR/>Please discard the second (or the first) and forgive my grave indiscretion...Olafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12434267803807108634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164173268202688042006-11-22T00:27:00.000-05:002006-11-22T00:27:00.000-05:00Haha,Is Olaf the real issue we should all be consi...Haha,<BR/><BR/>Is Olaf the real issue we should all be considering? Is his reputation more important than the survival of our planet?<BR/><BR/>For anyone who wants to read the infamous Dana/Olaf incident, <A HREF="http://prairiewrangler.blogspot.com/2006/10/wrangler-ropes-rookie-galloping_28.html" REL="nofollow">here's the link</A>. It's a very interesting read, to say the least - and I'm quite sure that in the exchange, I was the one who came off looking reasonable (for once!)<BR/><BR/>On this thread, I especially liked the "Olaf is a boy" comment (who knew Dana knew so much about me, including my age and maturity level!), and how I am "a poli-sci student at the U of C", although I've been on the campus but once and am no longer a student. And, for the record, I'm officially scared of Dana's conservative cyber-whackin' stick! Yikes!<BR/><BR/>ANYWAYS, I really liked this post Steve. It actually made a reasonable argument as to why Rona should resign, and notably relied on post-NDP resolution evidence. I think that Rona should have to account for the committee "truthiness", but I'd give her an opportunity to explain before I chalk it up to "lying".<BR/><BR/>Personally, I think she is definitely not the Conservatives best choice (Werner brought up Diane Ablonczy, who DEFINITELY should have gotten a cabinet posting), and despite the evidence you provide, I wouldn't call her necessarily incompetent. I don't think that the Conservative party had many avowed environmentalists to choose from, so they <I>all</I> had to learn a great deal (as would many in the other parties, but to a lesser degree).<BR/><BR/>I mean, as I've said before, if we ever (God forbid) elected an NDP government, I'd expect the finance minister to make quite a few mistakes the first time out.<BR/><BR/>Maybe I sound like an apologist, but I really don't think that Rona's missteps justify to a resignation, especially considering the mistakes of past ministers who have screwed up in equal manner without resigning. And I do think that the majority of those calling for Rona's resignation are doing so on the basis of policy disagreement, as opposed to the reasonable arguments you put forward.<BR/><BR/>No one can reasonably defend the Conservative environmental policy as sufficient, just as no one can defend the Liberal record, but I think that Rona's failings have more to do with the government in which she was elected than her own incompetence. And I think that she and the Conservatives should receive at least muted applause based on the fact that they let the legislation go to committee, and seem to be expressing a desire to improve and, yes, "learn". <BR/><BR/>In any case, great post Steve.Olafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12434267803807108634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164171993700504772006-11-22T00:06:00.000-05:002006-11-22T00:06:00.000-05:00At first I didn't understand the lesson of Diogene...<I>At first I didn't understand the lesson of Diogenes.<BR/><BR/>Now I always carry a fucking stick.</I><BR/><BR/>LOL dana. I can't and won't judge what you and Olaf have exchanged.<BR/><BR/>Stick with us though, Steve always provides interesting discourse and if reasoned people from the other side appear...all the better. <BR/><BR/>Steve, I find it odd that Harper hasn't realised this will sink him. He is a lot of things...stupid is not one of them.<BR/><BR/>Myopic and convicted I guess...myopic wins though...and then you lose.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04291881352139075405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164170235260752192006-11-21T23:37:00.000-05:002006-11-21T23:37:00.000-05:00Olaf and I had an interaction somewhere once, I do...Olaf and I had an interaction somewhere once, I don't remember where, maybe at the Beav, where I tried to communicate, perhaps too forcibly for the boy's tender sensibilities, how ultimately foolish and isolating it was for Con supporters to paint anyone and everyone who disagreed with them about something, anything as "loony lefties". <BR/><BR/>A day or so later I went to his blog where someone whose prose read as though he were some kind of rightie-tightie mentor to Olaf admonished Olaf to "stay out of the gutter".<BR/><BR/>That Olaf coninues to lurk and even post on occasion around more progressive blogs than Small Dead Brains or Blogging Whories is a mark in his favour. It at least shows curiosity. <BR/><BR/>He's a poli-sci student at U of C. Guess what you are - a thesis subject. A bug under a microscope. Nothing more.<BR/><BR/>In January of '97 when I first got online I started trying to find thoughtful, intelligent, historically minded, honest members of the North American conservative community with whom to have a reasoned discourse.<BR/><BR/>At first I didn't understand the lesson of Diogenes.<BR/><BR/>Now I always carry a fucking stick.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164169553119277492006-11-21T23:25:00.000-05:002006-11-21T23:25:00.000-05:00wilsonThanks for sharing. Huh?knbBingo!!wilson<BR/><BR/>Thanks for sharing. Huh?<BR/><BR/>knb<BR/><BR/>Bingo!!Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164169136254476872006-11-21T23:18:00.000-05:002006-11-21T23:18:00.000-05:00Ahhh and right on cue arrives wilson61...one who d...Ahhh and right on cue arrives wilson61...one who does not give much thought to what he says, but toes that damn line.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04291881352139075405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164169007666061482006-11-21T23:16:00.000-05:002006-11-21T23:16:00.000-05:00Steve, everything you point to, in terms of what H...Steve, everything you point to, in terms of what Harper had policies on, was domestic, or for domestic consumption. They had no International agenda on the radar. <BR/><BR/>So focused were they, (as I guess any opposition relegated there for so long would be), on gaining power, all of there effort went to the domestic message. Remember Bush when elected....national issues. He, like Harper had never travelled and seemed to show little interest in International affairs. Both of them, have been faced with quite the opposite of what they expected. IMO, they are both failing on that score. To reduce climate change and Kyoto, to some "Made in Canada", (who coined that anyway?), is not just laughable, it's ridiculous.<BR/><BR/>Ottlib, if he moves her to another file in Jan., he admits defeat. Where would he put her anyway? Foreign Affairs?, just kidding.<BR/><BR/>dana, olaf is a thoughtful conservative, who doesn't just toe the company line. Would that there be more of his ilk to discuss these issues with.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04291881352139075405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164168481778613962006-11-21T23:08:00.000-05:002006-11-21T23:08:00.000-05:00Ministry of Finance InvestigationMajority (58%) Sa...Ministry of Finance Investigation<BR/>Majority (58%) Say Ralph Goodale Should Resign as Finance Minister Until RCMP Investigation is Complete - 42% Say It Is Okay For Him to Stay On''<BR/> Goodale did not resign, and he is being investigated!!!<BR/><BR/>''House passes motion asking Liberals to resign <BR/> Tue. May. 10 2005 <BR/>In what could be seen as the beginning of the end for Paul Martin's minority government, the Liberals lost a vote on a controversial motion in the Commons Tuesday night.''<BR/> Paul Martin Liberals did not resign, even tho a majority in the house voted them out!!wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03589410224972050999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164167605865815912006-11-21T22:53:00.000-05:002006-11-21T22:53:00.000-05:00ottlib"When he discovered his judgement was in err...ottlib<BR/><BR/>"When he discovered his judgement was in error he cobbled together something to counteract the damage. That for me is the most obvious feature of the new "Clean Air Act". You can tell it was thrown together very quickly."<BR/><BR/>I think this also explains why the Conservatives were so willing to let the opposition amend in committee. I honestly believe that these guys calculated that their do nothing act would fly with the right packaging. Harper is "learning" that he serious mis-calculated the importance of the issue.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164166544503243242006-11-21T22:35:00.000-05:002006-11-21T22:35:00.000-05:00Stephen Harper's incompetence lies in the fact tha...Stephen Harper's incompetence lies in the fact that he believed that he could walk away from the Kyoto Protocol without suffering any political consequences.<BR/><BR/>When he discovered his judgement was in error he cobbled together something to counteract the damage. That for me is the most obvious feature of the new "Clean Air Act". You can tell it was thrown together very quickly.<BR/><BR/>The whole exercise is a desparate attempt to make the environment in general and climate change in particular go away before the the expected election in the Spring. <BR/><BR/>One way to keep it from going away is to keep demanding Ms. Ambrose's resignation.<BR/><BR/>Conversely, if this is still an issue in January expect Ms. Ambrose to be moved somewhere else. That will be the last desparate attempt to change the subject before the election.ottlibhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12695135535019042279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164165274424364992006-11-21T22:14:00.000-05:002006-11-21T22:14:00.000-05:00knbThat's why when Ambrose and company say that cl...knb<BR/><BR/>That's why when Ambrose and company say that climate change is a big priority for this government I laugh. They had policies on taxes, the military, national security, childcare, accountability, crime, etc, etc, but on the environment it was "developing a made in Canada solution". 13 years, you would think they could have developed something, other than we hate Kyoto. It really is ridiculous.<BR/><BR/>dana<BR/><BR/>I like Olaf, because even though we mostly disagree, he is normally civil and thoughtful.Steve Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871113039374739208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164164149173591732006-11-21T21:55:00.000-05:002006-11-21T21:55:00.000-05:00Not only is Kyoto officially dead in Canada so is ...Not only is Kyoto officially dead in Canada so is the entire subject of global warming or climate change.<BR/><BR/>See http://politicsblog.ctv.ca/blog/_archives/2006/11/21/2517394.html for the whole sorry saga.<BR/><BR/>These bozos are about as incompetent a gang of anti-science, anti-free press, anti-democratic miscreants as this country has ever had the misfortune to stumble across. <BR/><BR/>Olaf is a boy. It's an error to afford his opinions the respect due the opinions of a man.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20358187.post-1164163325055017842006-11-21T21:42:00.000-05:002006-11-21T21:42:00.000-05:00Really good post Steve and I would agree, incompet...Really good post Steve and I would agree, incompetence is obvious. Your last analogy was good, but I'd take it a step further and say, this government wasn't just suddenly exposed to this file 10 months ago. (I know you mentioned this too.) For all of their bluster of "13 yrs. of Liberal, blah, blah", (which of course is nonsense in terms of when Kyoto was ratified etc.), were they not looking at this, developing a strategy in all of this time? Apparently not, apparently they were satisfied to rely on those who rejected the concept and thought they could sell that.<BR/><BR/>I will say this. Her incompetence is likely really Harper's incompetence, in that, he would have insisted that she present the "conservative view". Do you have an option at that point? I suppose, but not if you want to be a Minister. That said, she chose the devil she wanted to dance with and was ill prepared to carry out the task.<BR/><BR/>Olaf my friend, a thirsty mind is a good thing, unless you sate it while those around you are dying, (had to cue the drama!)Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04291881352139075405noreply@blogger.com