The poll finds nobody really sees much use for the Summit. Worse still:
Are the summit expenditures justifiable or not?
Justified 11%
Not Justified 78%
Don't Know 11%
If you peg baseline Conservative support at about three times the "justified" number, it demonstrates just how horribly the government is losing the pr war. This poll also explains why the Liberals have gone so far as to run ads (which I've actually heard quite a bit btw), because there is nowhere to hide for the government. These numbers translate to overwhelming rejection from their own kneejerk base, never mind swing voters and soft support.
A few months ago, I'm quite sure the PMO were giddy over the photo op orgasm that awaited them. However, just like the Olympics, Harper has managed to sabotage a friendly calendar. Rather than a high profile opportunity, it is now a case of get it over with for the government- every photo op now a reminder of waste and excess.
19 comments:
Unfortunately, the Cons don't need to hide. All they need to do is wait a day or so and Ignatieff will shoot himself in the foot. The idea of an extension of the hugely unpopular Afghan mission is about the worst thing I've heard from him yet. Instead of riding the wave of discontent and rejection of Harper's spendthrift g8/g20 fiasco, Iggy stepped in it... again.
I've seen a few LPC bloggers coming out and saying this latest policy position by Ignatieff is the last straw. Liberal leaning voters are sure to follow suit. The country is relatively united on the idea that we've shed enough blood in the Afghan quagmire; we've done our share; we've earned the privilege of moving on to someplace else -- someplace we might have a chance of actually succeeding.
Iggy's right. We didn't get it done. Neither did the Russians. Neither will the Americans. We've seen what "punching above our weight" gets us: an inability to carry out a mission and properly handle the prisoners we take.
I watched a US network newscast the other night where they were talking about the US troops moving into Kandahar, "the heart of the Taliban insurgency." From McChrystal's statements, you'd never know that nay NATO troops had been in Kandahar, at all.
How in the f*ck does Iggy think we can mount a training operation without it requiring combat? Even in Kabul. Hasn't training the ANA and Afghan Police Force been a big part of what we've supposedly been doing for the last nine years?
Yeah, Harper's screwed up with the g20 & g8 budgets, big time. Iggy's managed to screw up even bigger time with an issue that won't be forgotten after the walls come down and the tear gas blows away.
Holy off topic JB :)
I thought the topic was a party doing something that is at odds with public opinion. ;-)
The most important thing to happen in the past 24 hours was Ignatieff's bold foreign policy statement. As I knew you're an LPC backer, I came here looking for some response.
The part where you said poll "numbers translate to overwhelming rejection from their own kneejerk base, never mind swing voters and soft support" brought Iggy's Afghanistan policy to mind.
I actually think Ignatieff is taking a responsible position. Nobody is talking about the mission, and nobody truly believes we will pull out entirely. I'm fine with helping domestic forces, we do it right now in the West Bank.
JB - trying to help crazy Lizzie again?
Ignatieff did not endorse continuing fighting - he endorsed training, etc.
Between NATO and peacekeeping, Canada's been involved - why would we stop now? Peacekeeping and building was always one of Canada's strong points and pride.
MoS has a post that you might want to see wrt to training Afghans:
http://ow.ly/1ZkRb
Sandi, I don't think anyone believes that you can mount a training mission or any other mission in Afghanistan without coming under attack by Taliban. Any mission, training or humanitarian, will require a combat element for security.
Steve, you're on top of the polls. If I am not mistaken, most polls show a majority of Canadians do want us completely out of Afghanistan by 2011. Many of us never wanted Canada in there in the first place. Karzai's gang of corrupt thugs, warlords, torturers and opium merchants were never worth a single Canadian life and, unless you believe the unbelievable spin from MacKay et al, they are not showing signs of improvement.
Ignatieff's position is at odds with public opinion and will cost the LPC even more support than he's already cost. When Harper decides to extend the mission and, by necessity, it includes a combat element to secure the training element, he will have Ignatieff to thank and to blame.
We've shed enough blood in support of Karzai. No more.
JB
No offence, but can you link to someone who doesn't have an axe to grind? Almost as predictable as a Norman Spector column.
Anybody with a clue realizes that Canada isn't pulling everybody out after 2011, we will have some presence. If you want to do re-construction, you need security, so the question becomes, do you do the ridiculous and have Canadians accompanied by their American protectors, or do you own up and take care of your own people.
On the security front, we could train in elementary ways, THEN when combat training is required, they could move to other forces. There are many avenues available, all I'm saying, it's nice to have ONE leader that actually welcomes a debate.
How bout that summit poll eh???
There are always possible dangers in life - you could get hit by a bus walking across the street.
This is only an attempt for the Iggy haters to go on the attack again, and really, it's very tiresome.
We were talking about the Summit and JB and others try to change the subject so they can get their rants in.
Or do you pretend that you can have a training mission that does not involve combat?
The summit is a fiasco, a joke, a cruel trick played on Harper's enemies in downtown Toronto. The latest news is that they're uprooting trees inside the perimeter so incredible hulk protesters can't yank them out of the ground and use them as weapons. Trees!!
If protesters can pull up trees with their bare hand, surely they can pull bricks from the walls of buildings. Maybe they need to tear down all of the buildings so the protesters don't weaponize them.
What about the pavement? Didn't I just see a new sidewalk of interlocking paving stones that was burying a fire hydrant up to its shoulders? Wouldn't those paving stones make more accessible weapons than rooted trees?
Parliament will rise in the next few days for the summer. The wasted money will be down the tubes just like the billions we've wasted in Afghanistan. The only ones who'll be holding a grudge with Harper over the g20 will be in downtown TO. How many seats will he risk losing?
Harper's base will be quite willing to overlook the waste and fiscal hypocrisy as long as it means inconveniencing the hated Torontonians who never vote CPC.
If g8/g20 expenses play more than a teensy role in the next general election, I'll be surprised. Olympics? What Olympics?
"If g8/g20 expenses play more than a teensy role in the next general election"
I agree on the actual issue itself, but this is something that will haunt the narrative of good fiscal managers. Everyone will remember this boondoggle, and at the very least it will allow for chipping away at the Cons preferred presentation.
I think turning a $14 bn surplus into a $56 Bn deficit says plenty about the pitiful fiscal managerial abilities of the Cons. Despite that, though, poll after poll indicates that the public still considers the Conservatives to be better at fiscal management than anyone else. Sad but true.
They've spent the surplus and billions that our children and grandchildren will have to cough up in a massive effort to convince Canadians that their prudent fiscal management has allowed us to weather the financial storm better than other western nations. That effort appears to have succeeded. They've got the best support money can buy and they bought it with our money.
The g8/g20 waste could come back to bite their sorryasses if it becomes very apparent to voters that it was all a shamwow sideshow and nothing was actually accomplished. The 2005 g8 in Gleaneagles made a lot of promises to pull Africa out of poverty. As I understand it, only about 30% of the money pledged has actually materialized and Canada is one of the worst when it comes to aid for Africa.
The wastefulness of the Toronto summit expenses need to be coupled with the ineffectiveness and broken promises that come out of the summit to really make it hit home. 10 million starving Africans might help make that case.
If only the Cons showed in the polls with similar numbers!!
Liam,
Watch the numbers next week. Another wasted opportunity by Ignatieff. Most people would rather have a visiting Canadian instead of someone who wastes their money recklessly. The economy is improving and Harper will take the credit, and this also will be forgotten in the fall (just like prorogation). And our leader Ignatieff is headed to China instead of focusing on Canadians. Don't expect any MSM to go with him - the humidity and pollution in Beijing/Shanghai is unbearable in July.
Steve,
JimBobby is just frustrated with Ignatieff.
Come on. Ignatieff didn't shoot himself in the foot. We all know Canada is staying on after 2011. Leave to combat to someone else, and do what we've always done - contribute to peace building. it's a continuation of Liberal tradition. Hey, his dad worked for Pearson, so go figure.
Peter
He's going to China for a couple days. Did you miss the bus tour of Canada? Hardly a fair criticism.
Steve,
I was told all July and August, and poof, 4 days in China showed up. Travel time and getting your wings back with the 12 hour time zone difference, and poof, a week is gone.
All I know is that this summer may be his last hooray for me (and others I have spoken to). I was impressed with the bus, but as usual, am a little less impressed today. That's all. Plus, being in China a few weeks back I know that July is like the monsoon season in India and significantly worse than hurricane season in Florida.
I think the China trip can be productive. The biggest challenge for an opp leader is to get ink during this summer. This trip provides a nice change of pace from the bus tour, I think it's shrewd actually.
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