Meanwhile, no one is outlawing Canadian companies from doing business in Nigeria or Saudi Arabia or with dozens of other repressive regimes around the world.
Buy anything made in China today?
And do you think that Martin's visit to Libya did anything to cause Gaddafi’s behaviour or that there aren't democratically elected leaders with blood on their hands? George Bush took deliberate actions that resulted in the death of thousands of Iraqi civilians. Where was Ivison's article on our unholy relations with that regime. Oh, wait, it's different when, well, we or Ivison says it is.
Love Ivison's use of "Liberal Prime Minister" in front of Paul Martin's name (just PM would do).
Tell me if Harper was leading the government in 2004 he wouldn't be in Libya signing lucrative oil deals, before the others snap them up.
Yes Canada is as guilty as anyone (and I reminded everyone in the 'Silence is Deafening' thread) and this is not the first time, and it certainly won't be the last.
But leave it to Ivison to politicize his message. If Conservatives were so moral and ethical, then why didn't Canada break all ties with Libya after Harper came to power?
Our shame now goes way beyond politics.
- - -
@Kirk - China, while still a stern autocracy, has changed significantly since 1989 ...and I mean for the better. China is on her way to becoming a democracy too, and there is no way it will not become one thanks to a large educated and affluent middle class growing in that nation. China's leaders know it and are doing whatever it takes to keep the population at peace and provide them with jobs. Otherwise they know they're gone.
The next time there is a Tiananmen Square moment in China I will happily take a wager with anyone here that; a) the order to fire will not be given, or b) if given, it will not be obeyed.
People don't realize how close China was to a change in government back in 1989. The leaders had to find army units from the isolated west-end to come and shoot the protesters. The soldiers from the units in the populous east knew about what was going on in Tiananmen Square, and were refusing to take action against them.
This is why China is quite nervous about events in Northern Africa right now. Don't expect them to vote on any international action against Libya at the UN. China's leaders know their rule could end just as quickly.
And this is all thanks to our economic trading with the ancient land of Cathay.
Compare China's freedoms now to what they were when Chairman Mao was leader. If they were not engaged back in the 70's, it would still be a closed society.
Kirk, I'm not arguing that the Chinese leaders are not what they are, nasty despots. However they don't threaten anyone outside their borders, with the exception of those renegades on Taiwan who have the audacity to demand a free & democratic China.
Gaddafi on the other hand has plenty of blood on his hands that was spilled outside of Libya's borders. I don't recall China ever being involved in blowing up commercial airliners, or sending money to finance the IRA.
That should have been the red light to dealing with Gaddafi - we knew he was nuts, and didn't mind killing people. But the west started opening up to him anyhow.
Is China committing genocide of the Tibetan people and culture by making them a minority in their own land? Absolutely. Unfortunately, it's happening within China's borders, which means we can't do a heck of a lot.
However trading between nations actually does make the world more peaceful. Countries don't wish to start aggressions and risk losing trade revenue. Also we are influencing the Chinese, case in point is how freer their population is from 25 years ago.
And I say again, the next time the population of China rises against their government en mass ...they will be successful. Mark my words! There's 1.2 billion of them, and they know how the world around them works. In fact the Chinese government is very sensitive these days thanks to what's happening in the Arab world right now. They know what I say is true.
There is difference between China and Libya, sorry you don't see that. I think getting our influence within China will ultimately help them to representative government. You wish to take a pure principled stand. That's fine, we disagree and I'm taking a more pragmatic line.
However I think we both agree that no western nation should have been dealing with Libya knowing what Gaddafi is capable of.
7 comments:
Oh please. Hypocritical finger pointing.
Meanwhile, no one is outlawing Canadian companies from doing business in Nigeria or Saudi Arabia or with dozens of other repressive regimes around the world.
Buy anything made in China today?
And do you think that Martin's visit to Libya did anything to cause Gaddafi’s behaviour or that there aren't democratically elected leaders with blood on their hands? George Bush took deliberate actions that resulted in the death of thousands of Iraqi civilians. Where was Ivison's article on our unholy relations with that regime. Oh, wait, it's different when, well, we or Ivison says it is.
Love Ivison's use of "Liberal Prime Minister" in front of Paul Martin's name (just PM would do).
Tell me if Harper was leading the government in 2004 he wouldn't be in Libya signing lucrative oil deals, before the others snap them up.
Yes Canada is as guilty as anyone (and I reminded everyone in the 'Silence is Deafening' thread) and this is not the first time, and it certainly won't be the last.
But leave it to Ivison to politicize his message. If Conservatives were so moral and ethical, then why didn't Canada break all ties with Libya after Harper came to power?
Our shame now goes way beyond politics.
- - -
@Kirk -
China, while still a stern autocracy, has changed significantly since 1989 ...and I mean for the better. China is on her way to becoming a democracy too, and there is no way it will not become one thanks to a large educated and affluent middle class
growing in that nation. China's leaders know it and are doing whatever it takes to keep the population at peace and provide them with jobs. Otherwise they know they're gone.
The next time there is a Tiananmen Square moment in China I will happily take a wager with anyone here that;
a) the order to fire will not be given, or
b) if given, it will not be obeyed.
People don't realize how close China was to a change in government back in 1989. The leaders had to find army units from the isolated west-end to come and shoot the protesters. The soldiers from the units in the populous east knew about what was going on in Tiananmen Square, and were refusing to take action against them.
This is why China is quite nervous about events in Northern Africa right now. Don't expect them to vote on any international action against Libya at the UN. China's leaders know their rule could end just as quickly.
And this is all thanks to our economic trading with the ancient land of Cathay.
China... has changed significantly since 1989
Kinda like how Libya seemed to be changing for the better when they offered up the supposed bomber and made reparations for airliner bombing?
Compare China's freedoms now to what they were when Chairman Mao was leader. If they were not engaged back in the 70's, it would still be a closed society.
Also China has never helped terrorists or sponsored killings. Their leaders may be dictators, but they are not irrational nutbars.
Also China has never helped terrorists or sponsored killings.
Tell that to the Tibetans. And they are North Korea's one and only sponsor.
But if you want to say that anyone not as bad as Gaddafi is OK to deal with well that's hardly a stand on any sort of principle.
Kirk, I'm not arguing that the Chinese leaders are not what they are, nasty despots. However they don't threaten anyone outside their borders, with the exception of those renegades on Taiwan who have the audacity to demand a free & democratic China.
Gaddafi on the other hand has plenty of blood on his hands that was spilled outside of Libya's borders. I don't recall China ever being involved in blowing up commercial airliners, or sending money to finance the IRA.
That should have been the red light to dealing with Gaddafi - we knew he was nuts, and didn't mind killing people. But the west started opening up to him anyhow.
Is China committing genocide of the Tibetan people and culture by making them a minority in their own land? Absolutely. Unfortunately, it's happening within China's borders, which means we can't do a heck of a lot.
However trading between nations actually does make the world more peaceful. Countries don't wish to start aggressions and risk losing trade revenue. Also we are influencing the Chinese, case in point is how freer their population is from 25 years ago.
And I say again, the next time the population of China rises against their government en mass ...they will be successful. Mark my words! There's 1.2 billion of them, and they know how the world around them works. In fact the Chinese government is very sensitive these days thanks to what's happening in the Arab world right now. They know what I say is true.
There is difference between China and Libya, sorry you don't see that. I think getting our influence within China will ultimately help them to representative government. You wish to take a pure principled stand. That's fine, we disagree and I'm taking a more pragmatic line.
However I think we both agree that no western nation should have been dealing with Libya knowing what Gaddafi is capable of.
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