Wednesday, December 02, 2009

MacKay's House Of Cards

Peter MacKay is either completely and utterly incompetent, which puts his fitness as a Minister into question, or he's purposely misleading Canadians about what he knew and when on the torture question. Either way I see calls for his resignation in the near future. Reading the latest investigative piece by the Canadian Press, we get further insight into others raising the same concerns as Colvin, connecting the dots right to MacKay's DOORSTEP. We also learn of frustration, that the Canadian military "won't return the calls" of the most respected international human rights organization. The whole mess congeals to paint a picture of indifference, willful ignorance and culpability. It really is an amazing read:
The International Red Cross met twice with senior Canadian officials in Kandahar to deliver veiled but insistent warnings about torture in Afghan jails a year before Canada acted to protect detainees... undermine the federal government's claims that diplomat Richard Colvin was a lone voice raising vague concerns about torture....

But the new memos show that the insistent concerns were specific to Canada's military mission in Afghanistan and made directly to senior Canadian officials, not transmitted through a single diplomat.

Two further high-level Red Cross meetings about torture took place in Ottawa and Geneva around the same time with Canadian officials.

...Three high-ranking generals, including former general Rick Hillier, described his allegations last week as "ludicrous."

But the new memos show that Colvin's concerns were in fact shared by a respected humanitarian agency that pushed the diplomatic envelope to get the ear of Canadian officials. The International Red Cross by convention is allowed to raise specific concerns about torture only with the national government of a country.

...That meeting spawned a second more detailed discussion at Kandahar Airfield on June 2.

...The Kandahar meeting was followed by a more high-level meeting on June 12, 2006, in Ottawa involving the international agency's delegation head for the U.S. and Canada as well as the agency's legal adviser from Washington.

A series of meetings with Canadian officials, culminating in a "high level meeting" in Ottawa, and yet MacKay clings to the lack of credible information, Colvin a lone wolf. Foreign Affairs now admits to meetings on the torture question, in OTTAWA, and yet we're to believe that MacKay was "never briefed". Oh, for the love of god, you're either a gigantic dolt or a bald faced liar. It was so bad, that the relationship with the Red Cross became strained, and they relayed to Colvin their aprehension to share information because of "CANADIAN political pressure". The only pressure that would matter to the Red Cross would be from the HIGHEST of office.

Another vein that went directly to Foreign Affairs, today's confirmation that all of Colvin's correspondence, did in fact make to the MacKay's office. SO, you have high level diplomatic meetings on two continents, continually warnings to the military as well as consistent correspondance coming from the field into your office, and MacKay was unaware, only vague acknowledgement of problems in the theatre, nothing specific to Canada. Speechless.

We need a public inquiry.


marie said...

We definitely do need an inquiry but I don't think we are going to get one. Harper and clowns have decided that it would not be to their advantage and will drag their heels all the way and to hell with the truth. They will get away with this behaviour again unless Canadians revolt and demand that he allow one to happen which he will ignore again.

Sad to have such a dishonest Prime Minister and his parrots in Canada

We need to wake up Canadians and the media to stop spreading the PM's propaganda to keep him in office.

Jerry Prager said...

If the international criminal tribunal keeps digging into this it won't matter what Canadians think, they'll find culpability if it's there. As for MacKay, his word was worthless to begin with, so it should be no surprise to learn he has no compuctions against lying about this now. Harper is going to open his mouth about rights in China and the Chinese are gong to laugh in his face.

Steve V said...

Jerry, that's what I think as well. They'll resist, and maybe there's enough domestically to tip the balance, or the international tribunal might bring it to a head.

Right now, I think the government is looking at the calendar, trying to make to the Christmas distraction, and hope it fades. The Committee is done this week, doesn't come back for more than two months. Harper is hiding, it's just delay and obstruction, they're trying to run out the clock on the fall session. It's all they've got.

Lizt. said...

Can anyone tell me how anyone is going to find anything, with the Government blacking out all the truth?
Harper will try to charm the pants off the Chinese, for votes over here. What a disgrace!

CanadianSense said...


Harper is running scared? (Very original)

When was the last the LPOC broke 30% in support? MI Angus Poll Best PM 12%

The government and the military have been very clear they have cleaned up the mess left by the previous government and improved the detainee program.

I still would support a Public Inquiry if the LPOC would return the Adscam money, and all political parties give up their subsidy. (Another $ 30 million)
GST overpayment returned to the taxpayer
That $ 75 million should cover the fishing expedition and possible nail JC and Paul Martin for 2001-2006.

Gayle said...

Yes CS - the investigation into whether this government turned a blind eye to torture and then lied to the Canadian people about it should be dependent on whether the liberal party does something.

The lengths some people will go to try to deflect this issue is starting to become comical.

RuralSandi said...

CS - you're repeating the PM talking points. Wonder, do you work in that basement with the other strategists? Got your post-it notes handy?

MacKay either incompetent or covering up - ah, BOTH.

CanadianSense said...


The crux of the issue is the coalition chose to refute the testimony of everyone for Colvin.

Clearly the coaltion have an agenda and the LPOC again don't have a clue how the NDP and Bloc have played them.
The LPOC are responsible for 2001-2006 treatment of detainee's. The CPC can be linked for 2006-2009 best of luck. How much did the GOC spend to improve the detainee problem to correct the LPOC who only put a detainee policy in 2005?

Sadly Harper understands the coalition party has been crushed now and they are terrified (Polls) to remove their confidence.

Again I am in favour if we can get the coalition party to agree to pay for it.

RuralSandi said...

Boy CS you are behind. That coalition was a year ago. It's over and you know it.

I think you need to ask Harper's people for new material.

Getting off topic again (on purpose) doesn't eliminate the problem at all. In fact, it's getting worse. You accept whatever Harper does, legal, illegal, moral or not moral and that shows you have something wrong in your thinking - terribly wrong. I feel sorry for you.

CS is a perfect example of a gullible sheep.

CanadianSense said...


The G of C have been clear in their statements and have the opposition who have been trying to play the 'gotcha game' in QP.

The opposition have alleged Colvin's testimony is the only version of history they are willing to accept.

Colvin's testimony is 2nd or 3rd hand and lacks EVIDENCE.

I agree with a Public Inquiry (fishing expedition) for 2001-Present if the coalition is willing to pay for it. End of story.

My biggest concern was the waste of taxpayers money and punishment of the front line troops in the past. History lesson from Somalia Inquiry? *Airborne Disbanded

Who suffered? Did the pathologist correct the doctor who made the allegations of torture?

Denial of what and who paid for the actions a few individuals?

Need a link?

RS, by all means keep playing the gotcha game a hope a "paper trail" catches a senior person in a lie.
Best of luck.

(This is only fueling anti coalition support)

CanadianSense said...


MI promised he would support the coalition need a link?

Politicians flip flop all the time, check the HST, asbestos position from LPOC.

-->We<-- don't decide what SPIN doctors will keep alive.(and the CPC can afford to keep it alive)

So the Coalition is alive and well according to the voting public and in the next general election you will watch the CPC make their case why the coalition party of the lib+ndp and Bloc can't be trusted.

Did the coalition sing from the same song sheet on Colvin testimony?

RuralSandi said...

CS - now we know you're a loon.

You have nothing to do? You are all over the blogosphere 24/7 day and night with lengthy comments that can't even stay on topic. Get a job or something.

Take a look at Impolitical today re: International investigation

CanadianSense said...


directing me to another Lib blogger for your proof?

What is it with Liberal "peer review" and CRU peer review have in common?

Only "fudged" evidence is included in supporting their predetermined outcome.

Sorry RS all evidence and all testimony must be included or it is a fishing expedition.

Thanks for the repeated personal attacks again. Like the CRU pattern of calling people "deniers".

The pattern is similar.

Gayle said...

Ha ha ha

Now you are resorting to "coalition" talkig points? Your desperation is becoming even more desperate.

It is to laugh...

Anyway, I guess I should point out for those of you who obviously have not bothered to educate yourself on the facts here that:

a) Colvin does not stand alone, what with all those memos from the Red Cross and all, not to mention his own memos, and that instrument of torture that was found in a tour of the prison. If only the government would allow him to release his unredacted memos people like me would not think they had something to hide.

b) when the liberal government was responsible for the transfer of prisoners, they were being transferred to the US army, and no one was alleging they were being tortured. That is why the issue is whether the current government, having been advised of torture early into their mandate, decided to ignore it.

That is your lesson for the day.

You are welcome.

CanadianSense said...

Gayle look up the word REBUKE.

Did the Red Cross Rebuke Colvin's testimony?

It is sad how your hatred for the current gov't blinds you to the facts.

Not a single case has been MADE for torture of a detainee transferred by our Canadians military.

You can keep playing around this issue. Evidence does matter and allegations from hearsay is not enough.

What did those Prison Inspectors testify?

The "house of cards" as Steve V posts is the opposition to frame this as a cover up or "memos" and the Canadians are complicit with torture or should have known it would have taken place.

Sorry Gayle. Keep trying. Fanaticism is an important trait.

Gene Rayburn said...

shorter Oakville Crackpot: wank wank wank. Look at me masturbate! wank wank wank

Gayle said...

"Gayle look up the word REBUKE.

Did the Red Cross Rebuke Colvin's testimony?"

No. Which is my point, so thanks.

Tof KW said...

"It is sad how your hatred for the current gov't blinds you to the facts."

Actually it is sad that your infatuation with Harper blinds you from seeing the serious international implications of Canada's handling of Afghan detainees, to which our own military admits the majority of them are innocent.

CanadianSense, you are attempting to divert attention with your bullshit about the Liberal party, or saying anyone who questions our government is being unpatriotic to our soldiers. Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld did this in the US. You only embarrass yourself by using the same arguments. Our military is under orders to hand detainees to a nation who’s prisons, more than likely, torture people. Those orders come from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Handing people to a 2nd party who tortures prisoners is against international law. Harper and MacKay are ultimately responsible for this situation.

There is more than enough doubt now for a formal inquiry, with several credible witnesses and organizations telling us the Afghan prison system routinely tortures detainees. The Gomery inquiry into Adscam began with even less concrete evidence than we now have with this affair, and this is a much worse as this is an international situation which has the potential to ruin over 60 years of Canada's work on international human rights.

Paul Martin had the guts to call an inquiry while he was PM. Harper and the Reformer/Harrisites are scared little girls. He should have called a public inquiry, at the end admit mistakes were made, and come up with new procedures/guidelines for our government to follow. He would lose what? Maybe 2-3% in opinion polls?

When our troops first rolled into Kandahar, the local Afghans welcomed us there because, well, we were not the US Army. Canada had (note: I use the word had) a reputation of being unbiased, international, and a strong advocate of human rights.

Harper has the potential to piss away 60 years of hard work by past Conservative & Liberal governments with this.

Steve V said...

Anybody who actually believes the Red Cross undercut Colvin, is a complete and utter fool. The way people manipulate is astounding. They merely rebuked the public forum, which goes against their standard operating procedures. They did not rebuke his allegations, in fact they were his PRIMARY source.

Anyways, the fact that people must do logical gymanistics to try and cobble together a lame retort, speaks volumes about the weakness of argument.

CanadianSense said...


"our own military admits the majority of them are innocent"

Links please.

If you think regular Canadians believe the BS from the opposition or they are concerned about the comfort of the "detainess" your main residence must be off planet.

Tof KW said...

My bad, I admit 'majority' was the wrong word to use, should have said 'a good number' were probably innocent. All off the record of course, but one only needs to study the contradictions to see it. Here’s the first hit I got from a human rights blog…

Shadow of the Sun 

"Hillier led the Canadian military when it expanded its military role in Afghanistan in November 2005, famously declaring that Canada's role would be to “kill detestable murderers and scumbags.” In 2006, he described the mission: “We are the Canadian forces, and our job is to be able to kill people.”The general's testimony implicitly acknowledged Colvin's claim that innocent Afghans were being rounded up. He said it was near to impossible for Canadian troops to distinguish Afghans who are “farmers by day and Taliban by night.”

Steve V said...

"If you think regular Canadians believe the BS from the opposition"

What a tool. You're the one waving polls around, like they're written in stone and you can't even acknowledge that TWO polls showed OVERWHELMING support for Colvin, even CONSERVATIVES aren't buying. You're such a fucking moron, it's staggering. And, I mean that with complete sincerity. Anyways, another day on Liblogs for the LONELY little man. LOL.

Steve V said...

Does anyone know that CS actually has his own blog? Thought so. Nobody reads it, so he spends his days desperately trying to leave comments here. I mean EVERYDAY, on multiple occasions, it is one of the saddest things I've seen.

Get a life man, you're not changing minds, you're embarrassing yourself. Honestly, it's just pathetic.

You're party. Click ;)

Gayle said...

Seriously Steve, I do not think s/he is smart enough to know how ignorant s/he is. I honestly believe s/he is the most self deluded person I have ever encountered on the internet (in all his/her various personalities, as s/he seems to post under several names).

Your blog, but I would not be concerned about what s/he posts. I have been to BT blogs and even THEY do not take this person seriously - and that is saying something.

Steve V said...

I'm not concerned, it's just creepy. I honestly see the name, and delete immediately, unless someone has commented already. I don't read it, just click. It's funny that way, this one and a couple others literally stalk this blog. I tell them I don't read, but their little egos can't seem to accept how entirely irrelevant I find it. There's a psychology thesis there for someone. Cracks me up. That's the medium, a lot of great content, and these fringe misfits, that are desperate to be noticed.

You're right on the delusional front, it's sad. It actually thinks it matters. Not that you can't debate with Cons, Tomm isn't a bad example, but this one is just a complete joke.