Saturday, October 13, 2007
You sir, are a fool of the highest order. Absolutely staggering, that a man with Manley's political pedigree can't see that he is a willing pawn, in a game of Harper's choosing. Kudos to Harper, this is a shrewd political move, that is playing quite well and achieves much, in his attempt to neutralize Afghanistan as an issue.
This "panel" isn't representative of Canadian opinion, so transparent in intention, a stacked deck to solicite the desired response. Manley does great harm through his involvement, primarily because he does have credibility, his presence gives this panel the needed appearance. Has John Manley watched how Stephen Harper operates? Is Manley so naive, to think that Harper would willingly concede authority and final decision? Manley is Harper's muse, and he appears to lack the basic sensibility to see the obvious.
Harper chose Manley, a "hawkish" Liberal, because his opinions are already well known, there is no risk to his desired conclusion. Furthermore, Manley is given the "head" label to counteract the decided right slant of the panel. Manley isn't just a member, Harper is so deft to make him the face, while the obvious partisans work the shadows. Manley framed his involvement as question of duty, to serve his country, apparently oblivious to the fact that he enables Harper. How such a supposed intelligent statesman can be so dense is frankly beyond me. Instead of rising about partisanship, as Manley seems to believe, he voluntarily carries Harper's water. The problem, this isn't just Manley's blunder, he undercuts a serious and real debate, through his participation, not to mention helps Harper on his quest for a majority. Nice "duty".
Posted by Steve V at 10:42 AM
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Agree. It's as if he didn't see the first 'so-called' debate that Harper held on Afghanistan. A sham unwrapped as a cover to con the Canadian people while totally aimed at slicing at his opponent's achilles.
This is a sly move, but one that can be countered. somehow. Probably by tacticaly pointing out that 3 torie servants out of five does not make a non-partisan committee... This, i bet, is what Harper and Layton may have discussed early last week that left Layton seemingly and rarely holding his tongue.
But if you wanted a 'non-partisan' group to delve into Canada's role in Afghanistan, where is an NgO rep, or someone from the left?
"This is a sly move, but one that can be countered. somehow. Probably by tacticaly pointing out that 3 torie servants out of five does not make a non-partisan committee..."
Harper neutralizes that objective fact, by making Manley the lead. The sad part, that title probably fed Manley's ego and sense of worth.
Thats assuming he is still a liberal. Anyone care to take bets he'll be running as an MP for the CPC in the future. He's a bitter sellout.
Relax. Most people in this country think of Elizabeth when they hear Manley.
It is a 1-2 day news story, unless Manley pops up to debate Dion or Rae during an election campaign.
Either way, it is a non-factor.
"It is a 1-2 day news story, unless Manley pops up to debate Dion or Rae during an election campaign.
Either way, it is a non-factor."
Are you kidding me? It's a talking point for Harper, that he will use at every turn, to deflect and neutralize. This panel is not irrelevant, much as people would like to think.
It seems all the loonie lefties in the Liberal party have great difficulty in realizing that you are simply a small vocal minority that really has no issue or principle other the an anti-US, anti-Harper bias....get over it.
Afghanistan is an issue that the liberal party initiated, there has to be an understanding as to what is at stake..do we want to let the extremists destabilze our world again...do we want them to come back into power...do we want to go there again...simply walking away is not the answer, there can be no reconstruction without security...the public is beginning to understand this...let the committee do its work for the good of our country and the men, WOMEN and CHILDREN of Afghanistan.
This is clearly a bipartisan effort..what are you looney lefties worried about...is it the truth.
Anon, sorry, Steve's right.
Layton - "Blah, Blah, Blah, Troops home now!"
Harper - "Blah Blah,I Don't want to colour the impartial committee's findings."
It's the same old, "the matter is before the courts so we can't talk about it" thing.
Heh, you guys got snookered.
I think Steve is way off base about Manley. There aren't that many other Liberals with the same levels of respect, maybe Mckenna, Goodale, if he wasn't involved.
Funny how when everyone gets out of the house, they turn into humans. :)
I bet you he thinks this road leads to the leadership of the party. I saw him on Ontario election night sheepishly leave open the door to return to politcs.
For shame. I am done with John Manley.
I have to agree, it is an ego feed for manley, or is it, what if the comission does not fully follow the harpys line, in time we will see, i still say so far, politicaly, harpy is a novice and has add a streak of good luck, him and his minions, only have to come out of the closet, and maybe manley is the handle.
Cliff: Go back to SDA where you'll find an audience that thinks you know what you're talking about.
As for Manley.. he's being used not unlike what Bush used to do with the hawkish Democrats (like Lieberman). He will try to attempt to use him to undermine the Liberal position and party.
Of course, there are a) those of us in the Liberal grassroots/netroots who feel no compunction to point out what the Liberal leadership may be reluctant to do, and b) there are other parties in Canada who will have no hesitation pointing out Manley is a Liberal hawk and this is a sham committee.
How about you Liberals just stop, step back and ask yourself the following question:
Maybe Mr. Manley just doesn't like Dion, or give a crap what happens to him?
What a wonderful way to screw Dion without coming out and saying something so bluntly.
Manley knew what he was doing. The point is, there is a rather sizable group within the Liberal party that shares Harper's goals and worldview. This is one case where the "big tent" is proving a liability. Like it or not progressive Liberals will now be forced to follow the party as it ties itself in knots trying to placate the Manley's of the party.
burlivespipe: Layton, far from being silent, denounced Manley and Harper on Don Newman's show on the day it was announced.
heres is a thought, the harpy can't run the county unless he acts as a liberal, and he has to hire liberals because there is no one in the c.p.c. that can do the job. that makes the right, jokes and their supporters must be really pissed, thats the only way he can hang on to power, your looking at this the wrong way, lets celebrate, clap our hands in victory, for we are the ruling party in this country and the harpy just admitted so. if u have to blog, blog it with victory.
"What a wonderful way to screw Dion without coming out and saying something so bluntly"
Someone once mentioned that, during Liberal Cabinet meetings, Dion would criticize other Ministers for not handling their portfolio, and Dion would tell them what to do (my approximate recollection of that pundit).
Anyway, there could be a part of Manley that wants to get back at Dion for being such a know-it-all in the past.
But my take on Manley is that he sincerely wants to make a contribution in guiding Parliament on the proper course of action in Afghanistan, post Feb 2009. He's got a wealth of experience and credibility, which would be a shame to let go to waste at a time of war.
Obviously someone in the Liberal party thought Afghanistan was a good idea, or we wouldn't be there. They sent us in and signed us up for this extra mission, after all. Is it so surprising that some in the party still believe in the mission despite the fact that Dion has turned the Lib bus hard left in order to usurp the NDP/left vote? All Harper is doing is again, (remember the lapsing of the anti-terrorist legislation conundrum) exploiting this obvious disconnect in the party.
The funny thing is that every time one of these center-right Libs finds themselves suffocating on the fact that their party has become the NDP wanna-bees and breaks loose, they are immediately branded as bastards, dupes, idiots and on and on. No problem, keep them coming over to the other side. It won't be long till Harper can say "All your Rightwinger are belong to us."
It's really rich that Layton says no NDP were asked to be on the panel - can Layton say the NDP would have an open mind in the discussions? I doubt it.
Manley is part of the SPP and the New World Order groups - that bothers me.
Harper wants an election - February - Auditors report, Status of the Environment Report, DND expenditures, the FAA and deadline for Gomery report suggestions, underlying scandals, secret detainee issue, using the Afghan panel to delay a decision until February.
Now - who wants an election? HARPER before the shit hits the fan folks.
This "panel" isn't representative of Canadian opinion, so transparent in intention, a stacked deck to solicite the desired response.
Exactly and that will not go unnoticed.
Burl, Layton and Harper met on the Throne Speech.
I'm not going with duped, Manley is about Manley, period. I agree with anonymous on the SPP and 'new world order'- that's Manley's agenda and he'll go where ever he feels like it to achieve it. I can also see him running for the leadership of the cons down the road. There's not a 'duty' bone in his body.
On MDL yesterday MD asked everyone if they really believed Harper was going to listen to the panel. The findings are to be delivered at the end of January, assuming there is no election (and I think Harper is hoping otherwise).
All the talking heads said the resulting report is a foregone conclusion because Harper purposely chose people who agree with his view.
If even Mike Duffy can see this, surely the rest of Canada can see it too? I say let it go. Most Canadians are going to have their own ideas about the war and could not care less what some people who already have made up their minds think about it.
My view is the panel is Harper's tool to create a diversion for an election he wants now. If that election does not happen until after the panel releases its report, then I am not sure how much Harper can use it as a diversion.
By the way, last night Global went to the street to speak to people about the IR poll, and everyone they spoke to said they did not want Harper to govern with a majority. Maybe what these polls do is scare people away from voting for him.
Just a thought...
"last night Global went to the street to speak to people about the IR poll, and everyone they spoke to said they did not want Harper to govern with a majority. Maybe what these polls do is scare people away from voting for him."
There is a trend, everytime Harper gets near a majority, we see voter apprehension.
Gayle, good point re' the poll on the street.
I agree with Steve. He hits his head here. Time will tell whether he's made of bubble gum or rubber.
Steve, I know you are angry, I can feel it actually. Maybe that emotion has shifted to resignation?
I have update that link's to you. Perhaps there is another side to be focused on?
I suggest we go there. Let's make the argument for the obvious. That would be Harper, ;).
Hi knb, good post, interesting angle :) I'm not "resigned", but I'm trying to read what I see as objectively as I can. As it relates to angry, Manley is the fool here, and I just shake my head that enters this in good faith, as though a legitimate venue to "serve". Good grief man, where have you been.
One other tidbit in this matter. Why didn't Manley give other Libs the heads up on this panel? Why the bombshell, if you are the "Liberal" you claim? That fact is minor in one sense, but really telling in another.
No one gets it. The effect on the Afghanistan debate is just one part of this. This is part of a deliberate and multifaceted plan to apply pressure on fault lines within the Liberal Party to shear the right and left wings apart. The Liberal Party will be a rump party made up of the left wing, now in a death battle with the NDP and the Green Party.
And judging by the anger I'm reading on this blog, the plan is working.
They said the same thing after 1984 and after 1980.
It seems that every time the Liberals find themselves in opposition the left and the right all claim that the Liberal Party is in its death throes.
The simple fact of Canadian life is the Liberal Party of Canada is still considered by Canadians to be one of the parties that can govern this country.
Do not let the current troubles of the Liberals or the current good fortune of the Conservatives to fool you into thinking otherwise.
And if the Liberals tip away would it be a bad thing? I would be more than happy to be a part of a new centre left party under a Mixed Member Proportional Representation system.
You people just proved my point,in the sense that has soon has someone from the liberal party that has a different point of view from you lefties you attack them for being a fool etc...etc...
Its no wonder why the liberal party has so much infighting going on. Just take a look at Jean Chrétien new
book that will come out i think next week.
There will be a whole lot of finger pointing for what i hear.
When the liberals will let the throne speech pass next week. We has
Conservatives will have on our side Jack Layton not intentionally of course,because he will no doubt go to attack mode against the liberals for being responsible for the throne speech to have passed. This can only help the Conservatives.
It will be great to see the left fight among themselves.
anonymous at 2:41
I agree, and this is why the latest poll doesn't worry me. Steve keeps hiding, stalling, avoiding debate. When the House sits, it will be harder to dodge questions. If the opposition hammers away hard enough, Steve's and his party's weaknesses show. Ad to what you said that another IPCC report is coming out, and the Bush/Harper interference looks bad, and there's also the problem with having troops in Afg. risking their lives while Karzai talks about negotiating with the Taliban.
We need to keep doing what we do - show the truths this neandercon government keeps trying to hide. And blog what's good about Dion and the Liberals, but not at the expense of truth.
Steve, I can't disagree, though I cannot know why he didn't spill his intent, except to say, someone would "tell" the media. Obviously, he's already under orders, Harper orders. This is where we agree. That acceptance is beyond naive.
I'm grateful that telling Dion was amongst his criteria.
Janke...get over yourself. Your narrative is interesting, but not compelling and for the record, unfounded.
I guess I left the barn door open again.
"The Liberal Party will be a rump party made up of the left wing, now in a death battle with the NDP and the Green Party."
You're delusional, enjoy the moment in the sun, history tells us it NEVER lasts.
the right is where it ain't
"You people just proved my point,in the sense that has soon has someone from the liberal party that has a different point of view from you lefties you attack them for being a fool etc...etc...
It has nothing to do with different points of view, unlike your monolith, the Liberal Party is a party of honest debate. My point here, Manley is playing Harper's game, this has nothing at all to do with reaching "consensus" or admirable tasks.
Was Manley duped?
I'm not sure. He refused to serve under Paul Martin as ambassador to Washington, so he obviously doesn't have a "The PM asks me to jump, I say 'how high'" mentality.
I can think of two likely possibilities.
1. He is pulling a Wajid Khan. One month, Liberal advisor to the PM. Next month, swaps memberships. Next election, stands as a Conservative.
2. He honestly believes in the Afghanistan mission and is willing to be the instrument of pressure on the Official Opposition in order to ensure its survival -- that's to say, his loyalty to the mission overrides his loyalty to the current leadership of the Liberal Party.
(I favour the second explanation.)
If Manley is playing Harper's game, it's probably because he knows the rules.
The sad part, that title probably fed Manley's ego and sense of worth.
Steve, I honestly did expect better from you. Attacking his character is beneath you
Give this a read
He honestly believes in the Afghanistan mission and is willing to be the instrument of pressure on the Official Opposition in order to ensure its survival -- that's to say, his loyalty to the mission overrides his loyalty to the current leadership of the Liberal Party.
Couldnt have said it better myself! This is exactly why. You know, not all of us are partisan sheep to our parties.
Some of us actually put our principles above national machines.
And your going to be hearing from Dallaire soon talking about this.
We liberals aren't ziplocked to any ideologies, unlike the parties to our left and right. That means we have divided opinions on certain policies and platforms, and also a very Canadian-esque manner of debate.
What this opens for the Liberals is another vehicle inwhich to point at Harper and show that he does not know or care about the role of the federal gov't, the elected members of parliament. In the end, we have the vote on who represents us and pray that their decisions guide us. Now, on an issue that severely divides Canadians, the PM takes the role and debate away from the House of Commons, which i guess is thankful if you are one of Harper's backrow potted ferns, and puts it to a select 'chosen few.' By asking this bi-partisan panel to root out an answer in such a short span, but obviously defusing this issue during his beloved 'Drive for a Majority (sssshhhh!)', Harper has shown his cards. Again.
That is another reason why I believe it would be foolish to defeat the gov't on the Throne Speech. No gov't has ever been defeated on a Throne Speech in Canada, and there will be an early opportunity to do so in the weeks ahead. Let Canadians see this impotent Government sputter and deliver its most bellicose drivel in the House, where they are truly of the WWF calibre.
And KnB, no doubt Harper and Layton talked about the TS, but i'd also expect their 'You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' rogues' agreement regarding the liberal party was also tiptoed around...
"Steve, I honestly did expect better from you. Attacking his character is beneath you"
I expected better from Manley. I'm not attacking his character, but I'm sure as hell questioning his judgement. A willing participant in a farce, I stand by that assessment, courtesy aside.
"You know, not all of us are partisan sheep to our parties.
Some of us actually put our principles above national machines."
What I find absolutely hilarious from the apologists, you actually take this panel at face value, as though it is comprised on principle and real purpose. That premise isn't real in my estimation, which makes all the
"above partisanship" defences fall apart. This is a Harper ruse, period.
It seems so obvious that that commision is un representative of Canadian opinion on the war, but I just keep thinking about that latest poll giving the Conservatives 40 percent, and that's with the shitstorm they've gotten about the war for all these months.
Just a quick note: Whoever the other Cliff posting here is - it ain't me babe. Note that my name leads to a profile, his doesn't.
Calling Liberals lefties? Now that's really loony.
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