Saturday, December 20, 2008


I see the Conservatives have finally updated that toilet they call a website, Stephane is finally gone, which left half the site empty. And, in Dion's place, the first Ignatieff entry, something about a theoretical tax hike, possibly in the future, depending on what unknowns confront us, based on yet to be determined fiscal realities. Hard hitting stuff, particularly the 1991 quote from a Canadian paper (wasn't he supposed to be AWOL then boys, don't confuse us).

Anyways, the piece is a complete dud, but desperate times call... What I wanted to do is offer the Conservatives some advice. You remember the Dion picture, the shrugged shoulders pic, that the site used for 2 years? Well, the Ignatieff one is pretty placid, apart from a little flaring of the nostrils, doesn't really convey much. Surely, you can find a better signature photo. I know early days, but come on Michael has been in front of cameras for decades, you mean to tell me there isn't one or two gems around. Pick it up bottom feeders, this isn't your best work.


Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, when they came up with the Dion attacks early on, we all thought they were feeble...thought they'd never work...well, how wrong we were.

Gayle said...

Jack - I have said this before, but will say it again. One of the reasons the Dion attack ads worked was because there were "senior liberals" who gave them credibility. The media picked up the meme because several liberals were encouraging them to do so.

I somehow doubt Iggy will have the same problem.

Anonymous said...

We can only hope, Gayle.

Unfortunately, Liberal Governments=higher taxes is a familiar and time tested Conservative line of attack.

Some Canadians may appreciate this type of fiscal honesty from Ignatieff.

However, the Cons' attack ads will no doubt twist Ignatieff's words into punchy, potent soundbites to prey on Canadians' ignorance of these matters.

Unknown said...

If that's the best they can come up with as their Ignatieff attack strategy, then they need some of Harper's Christmas cookies too.

Nobody is buying big ticket stuff any more anyway, so a 1% hike in the GST would have zero effect of most of us, but would give the federal government a little much-needed cash.

Steve V said...

Just to add, you can assume we've learned some lessons from Dion, so arguing the same happens this time, fails to acknowledge a simple fact. Besides, Ignatieff has already made it clear, we will fight back.

On other point, if the Cons do go hard negative, it's come to the point where it says more about them than the target. Harper as the mean spirited, hyper partisan is reinforced if they play dirty. I think we can flip it back on them, far more effectively than we could in the early days of this government.

Mike said...

Cons are pretty scared of Iggy eh?

Red Tory said...

Tough talk, "Anonymous"... tough talk.

Steve V said...


Sorry :)

Karen said...

Can anyone find the context of the 1991 quote?

That aside, have they not realised just how much baggage Harper has accumulated in terms of the credibility department?

I doubt too many are paying attention to this stuff at the moment but Ignatieff won't stand back.

It seems to me that they are flailing around trying to find something to pin on Iggy. Powers is throwing out the 'dithering' line, hoping it'll catch something.

Oh, they are afraid.

Steve V said...


If they're forced to go that far back, it's a sign of desperation. I honestly don't think they know what to do with Ignatieff, but I have no doubt they are afraid. I understand that negative attacks work, but for some reason I'm not that worried, the new guy just oozes PM in waiting ;)

Karen said...

I would agree Steve.

Karen said...

Ooops, I should h/t RT on that.

Anonymous said...

Conservatives are not afraid of Iggy, but if it makes you happy to delude yourselves into thinking that, that is your right.

Anonymous said...

Harpie is moving out of 24 Sussex ostensibly to allow NCC renovations (right). I guess the 30 billion deficit trial balloon didn't poll too well and he probably senses that it'll better let Iggy run things for a while.

Karen said...

Anonymous Conservative commenters may not be afraid, but they don't often trade in reality.

The Conservative party on the other hand is very afraid. It's apparent with every comment made from the PM on down.

It's going to get interesting.

Anonymous said...

“Constitutional law is 50 per cent rules, and 50 per cent high politics,” says McWhinney. “A successful G.G. knows how to maintain that balance. Reading public opinion is crucial.”

Anonymous said...

Anon writes: “Constitutional law is 50 per cent rules, and 50 per cent high politics,” says McWhinney. “A successful G.G. knows how to maintain that balance. Reading public opinion is crucial.”

If Jean 'read public opinion' before deciding to give in to Harper, she's even more stupid than I thought! As David Zussman wrote, most Canadians (including myself) didn't have a f***ing clue what prorogation meant, and understood even less what it entailed given the particular circumstances surrounding Harper's request, i.e. he had already lost the confidence of the House!

On another note pertaining to the burgeoning Ignatieff smear campaign, there is a US site where one of the tips given to counter opposition smears is to start a viral email campaign. It's a thought.
Because I can!

Anonymous said...

Cites turmoil in U.S., cost of climate measures
December 21, 2007
Bruce Campion-Smith
Tonda MacCharles
Ottawa Bureau

OTTAWA – Prime Minister Stephen Harper expects Canada's economy to suffer next year, buffeted by turmoil south of the border and the "cost" of new climate-change measures here at home.

In a calculated signal to Canadians, Harper said that 2008 will be "more challenging" for his government and the country.

"There remains very serious economic uncertainty in the United States and in other parts of the world, and it's impossible for me to see how Canada can be entirely immune from those developments," he said in a year-end interview with the Star.

Steve V said...

"Conservatives are not afraid of Iggy"

Oh come on now, you know it's true, even your man Fife uses the word, and we all know he's plugged into the PMO.

Anonymous said...

If I am Iggy, I would fight back by daring Harper to put a GST tax rebate as a poison pill. This is done by insisting that Layton sign a coalition pledge that the GST be increased to 7 per cent in a Liberal-NDP government.

A simple election based on who are the best economic managers in March 2009. It's the economy stupid, may be the best way to defeat Harper.

RuralSandi said...

David Dodge, the former Gov. of the Bank of Canada was on Mike Duffy on Friday. He said that with debt accumulating and the way the economy is going - WHATEVER party is in - they will have "NO choice" but to raise taxes.

He spoke in laymen's terms and he is one smart guy. I wish he were still Gov of the Bank of Canada instead of this Carney guy we have now. Remember, that's why the GST was created in the first place - we had massive debt.

Too bad we couldn't get that segment on YouTube.

Steve V said...


How long until some fool Con says Dodge is a Liberal ;)

Anonymous said...

It doesn't help when a certain angry person who claims to be a Liberal does a daily rant about Ignatieff because he was a Rae supporter and can't face facts, that like it or not, Ontario would never vote for Rae.

Sore losers and angry people who just don't think anyone should think any way but his way - we just don't need them.

I wasn't a Dion supporter at all, and even though I felt cheated by the backroom stuff that got him in, he became the leader and I didn't trash him. I swallowed by pride and supported him. In fact, my support got stronger when I saw the way Harper and his team of children did their constant attacks on him.

So, if the angry guy likes having Harper as PM, I guess he can just keep up his stupid and petty rants.

Steve V said...

Don't follow?

Anonymous said...

I lean conservative, I like Ignatieff and I'm happy the Liberals chose him as leader although like many, I didn't like the process by which he was chosen.

To me Ignatieff's selection signifies that the Liberals will finally make a turn to the center after their disastrous flirtation with the left under Dion.

The coalition was the left's last hurrah in the country for some time. The Liberals know that these times require a more centrist orientation. Ignatieff is pragmatic and on some issues even tilts decidedly right. I'm happy with that, I'd be happy with Iggy at the helm.

I'm happy that Gayle, RT, knb and other Liberal-lefty bloggers are happy too.

sjw said...

Don't follow?

angry guy

Gayle said...

"Sore losers and angry people who just don't think anyone should think any way but his way - we just don't need them."

I tend to agree, but given what Iggy's people did to Dion over the past two years, I do not think Iggy would be in any position to complain.

Iggy made this particular bed - he is going to have to find some way to deal with the fallout.

As for the polls, they do not concern me. If I recall, before the last election and in the first week Harper had similar results from the polls. This is what happens when people are not really engaged in the process.

Iggy needs to stay the course and do what is right for the country. He should not be guided by polls. That is what Harper has been doing and look what a mess we are in.

janfromthebruce said...

OH, we should see how those push polls, I mean polls framed their questions. But let's ignore those little gems of polling companies, on behalf of their "constituents" to framing bias, I mean leading, I mean fair and balanced questions. LOL
So sure, Canadians want Iggy the accommodating liberal to team up with Harper the bully to back up the capitalist class. Cause that is where most folks "bread is buttered" in the bread-line on mainstreet.
They don't want 50 billion in corporate taxcuts rescinded and they want personal taxcuts for their executives.
Also, most Canadians while we are in the throws of "disaster capitalism" to take the boots to women pay equity rights and unions' rights.
Sure the majority wants Iggy to unite the right with Harper the bully, as a defining moment in time. And Canadians during these hard times definitely want a 300 million dollar election cause this money is so well spent and has everything to do with their concerns about jobs, savings, pensions and housing - NOT!

Anonymous said...

What Iggy did to Dion? Please, what BS.

What Rae did to Dion - shall we start?

Let's stop this nonsense.

Fact is it doesn't matter what anyone supposedly did - Dion didn't cut it with the voters. I've spoken to people that paid absolutely no attention to Harper's attack ads, weren't aware of Liberal behind the scenes stuff, etc. They just didn't take to him.

Gayle said...

James is pretty clear on what he saw and heard - and as he was there I will have to give that to him.

I agree it does not help the party, but you reap what you sow and all that rot.

Anonymous said...

Ya, James saw stuff apparently, "well so did others about Rae". Perhaps this argument should end and end now.

It solves nothing.

Either everyone broods and cries or they move on like adults.

Steve V said...


Only 3 people ran for the leadership, and each of them had "supporters" working behind the scenes. For James, or anyone, to implicate Ignatieff, while simultaneously ignoring Rae "people" is both intellectually dishonest and completely and utterly unfair. All I know, Ignatieff did whatever was asked of him by Dion's team, over and above as a matter of fact.

Can we please just move on :)

Steve V said...

Speaking of polls, Con trolls, you failed to mention the horserace/leadership only AR poll, which showed a tight race, AND more importantly Harpo behind Iggy for best PM, his negatives exploding. As Harper goes, so do the Conservatives, that's how you guys have set up your appeal, so call me unconcerned. I believe in my gut, without question, that Iggy can take Harper down. I'm just not afraid of Harper, we are no longer fighting with one hand tied behind our back, you've lost your pinata.

Gayle said...

Steve - believe it or not, I have moved on.

That said, I have some understanding for the people doing to Iggy what he did to Dion - or at least what his people did to Dion.

It is not productive, but it is a bit rich to complain about that conduct after the conduct exhibited by Iggy's people. I accept the argument that Rae's people did it too, and if Rae were the leader right now he would probably be facing the same backlash as Iggy.

Yes let's move on - but perhaps we can do so without criticizing James. Allow him to vent and express his opinion - at least he is doing so openly. When people complain about his conduct after everything that happened over the past two years, they just look like hypocrites.

He appears to represent the minority opinion right now, but he is certainly entitled to express it.

Steve V said...


James is free to say what he wants, I didn't bring it up. That said, it's a "bit rich" to back Rae as though he the holy one, regarding Dion, when we all know differently. Selective venting I say, and entirely wrong. That said, whatever floats his boat, it's not really my concern.

Gayle said...

I know you were not the one who brought it up. I should have worded my comment more carefully.

Steve V said...


Just to be clear, you and I are in complete agreement, that Dion was undermined by "anonymous Liberals" and all the other counter-productive stuff. There is no question that some put forth a half hearted effort, and it was a factor. I've just never been one to make any one person responsible for the actions of supporters, nor do I think it necessarily reflects their intent.

James Curran said...

Interesting conversation. Anonymous assholes are always very tough people. Probably Francesco if I had to guess.

True. I've seen much. Some should keep in mind that in February 2006 I effectively was chosen Southern Ontario Co-chair for a certain leadership campaign, fromerly known as the chosen one, a.k.a Michael Ignatieff. I remained on that campaign until Michael and his people decided Quebec was a nation.

If we were going down that slope, I decided to leave for Dion - a man of CLARITY.

Now, I went to BOB this time for the same reasons. I like Michael. Some of the people around him continue to be dangerous. I don't like his politics - or sometimes lack thereof. I also admire his wife Zsuzsanna. It would have been easier for me to stay than leave based on principle.

However, I have fought my ass off for democracy in this f*cking party, and this fake, unfair, undemocratic piece of shit of a leadership selection runs against everything all of us in the grassroots just fought 4.5 years to get rid of.

Worse than anything the Martinites ever did. Waaaaay worse.

And, yes. I know a lot. I've seen a lot. The reason Bob is not in this so-called non-race for leadership is because he DID put his team to rest after the leadership, while Team Iggy continued to recruit, continued to place their team on the National Executive and continued to win nominations with their supporters...Rob Oliphant, Michelle Simson, Kirsty Duncan, Andrew Kania, Larry DiIanni to name a few.

Then, of course, we can talk about the so-called Qubec wing. Fragasso, Frulla, Coderre and Rodriguez couldn't possibly trash Dion more than they did. The Conservatives didn't have to run ads in that province the for Iggyites did damage daily. Shit, in Outremont I stood beside Coderre in on e of his anonymous source interviews openly criticizing the leader.

Then, of course the loudmouths October 15, 2008 asking for Dion's head. Scott Andrews, first time MP from NFLD and Jimmy K. Refresh my memory. Who were they supporting. Oh yeah. Michael Ignatieff.

Now, big mouth anonymous coward. If you really want to debate this, I'm available 24/7 to do so!

Who's Supposedly Liberal? Give your f&cking head a shake anonymous! Are all of the Liberals on this stream Laurier members? I am? Are all of you members of your riding executives? I sit on three.

Pawlease! Where were you anonymous coward when Dion was pissed on for two years straight? I was working my ass off for him while all the bitter Iggyites sat on the sidelines still shaking their heads and working the AGMs at ridings. Still fighting a battle fought in 2006.

I fought. I fought under my own name, with my own reputation while cheapshot cowards like you anon sit and talk about what a great Liberal you are.

I will oppose you in any AGM anywhere in this country coward. And I will do it in the name of a democratic and open party that is now lost.

Thanks for letting me visit Steve.

Steve V said...


Just one point that needs to be considered. A leader has to instill confidence in the troops, and if people see others completely outshining the leader, is that not a statement on failed leadership? Let's face it, while you and I may have liked Dion, many, many Liberals never connected to him and I can assure you, these were just rank and file, unaffiliated members. Dion must share some blame here, because he didn't demonstrate the capacity to inspire the reluctant, to show them that he was a leader.

James, I think you need to get over it, or maybe rethink your membership, because you simply can't function if you are consumed with bitterness. I didn't want Dion to resign after the election, but I must say, now that it's all over with, I feel like this party is finally getting back on track, morale, for the most part is high, there's a path ahead. For a myriad of reasons, Dion was a failure as Liberal leader and that is more painfully obvious by the day. I'm looking ahead, and I like what I see. Extraordinary circumstances sometimes trump preferred path, any fair read acknowledges the situation and pragmatism demands "cutting some slack". Let's move on.

James Curran said...

yes. Let's just have caucus pick our leaders from now on.

As for my membership? I don't think we need members anymore given the above statement. Just voters. No members.

Steve V said...


You need to separate a normal circumstance from this one, and react accordingly, rather than clinging to some ideal notion of the grassroots. You and I are in agreement, but the situation demanded a swift response, and for the Liberal Party, this has clearly shown itself to be the best outcome. Besides, if our caucus has the authority to oust a sitting PM without public consultation, then surely they have some authority in choosing who they want to lead them.

Just to add, from everything I gathered, it was Ignatieff in a romp anyways. If that sounds arrogant so be it, but Rae's people would also admit that he was much, much stronger than 2006, so if we avoid a bunch of mud slinging, not so bad in the end.

James, this move was a smart, smart chain of events, and frankly, apart form a select few, everyone is on board and moving on. It wasn't a grand conspiracy, it only happened this way because Ignatieff was the clear frontrunner, and we all know that. Dion had become an albatross, under the circumstances, and I'm actually proud that we didn't get bogged down in political correctness, we got our act together fast. I'm excited, I see good things ahead. My anger is directed at Harper.